5 ms·

Why? If they're shipping Pink Ladies from New Zealand, and there's an efficient market, can't we imply that it's a better allocation of resources to get Pink L

Why? If they're shipping Pink Ladies from New Zealand, and there's an efficient market, can't we imply that it's a better allocation of resources to get Pink Ladies from New Zealand? I mean, they're probably cheaper _even though_ they're getting shipped halfway across the world. What the market is saying is that: the highly skilled population of Germany is probably better off doing more advanced things than growing apples.

arcticfox 9y ago
I think the concern is about externalities like co2. It could also be a quality concern about doing stuff like picking food super raw and waiting for it to ripen in transit, which seems less than ideal. But your point about the efficient market is certainly valid FWIW.
- cafebabbe 9y ago
  How is it "efficient" if it means short-term collapse of the whole system?
moses-palmer 9y ago
I think that the reasoning against shipping apples across the globe is that consumers do not pay the full price; one might argue that the transportation is subsidised by our extraction and burning of oil at a rate much quicker than it is formed
- civilian 9y ago
  Hmmm, I can get behind the idea that oil isn't priced appropriately given it's externalities, but I would've focused on CO2, with a carbon tax being the solution, rather than looking at the rate at which oil is reformed.
  - dredmorbius 9y ago
    Time is a factor of production. We are depleting oil reserves at about 5 million times the rate they formed.[1] Corollary: oil price reflects an off-books depletion factor of roughly 5 million-fold. The price is vastly too low. Our fossil fuel consumption translated to present total biomass production (NPP, or the "photosynthetic ceiling"), is a very substantial fraction of all plant growth, I believe about 40%. We currently account for 20% of NPP consumption without utilising biomass as fuel.[1] The history of why extractive natural resources are costed on a labour-required basis only (and some very questionable economic and legal theories support this) is an interesting accident of history, religion, law, geology, business, oil, and more. I've been digging into that, though have further to go. The short answer is that we'd started using the stuff long before we understood its creation, and by the time we understood we pretended not to care.[2] The history of oil price response to overextraction in particular is mesmerising, with the booms at Titusville, Spindletop, and East Texas especially. The latter saw price per barrel fall from a $1 target, to $0.13, and then further to $0.02/bbl, before the national (and effectively global) production quota system managed by, of all organisations, the Texas Railroad Commission, was established in 1931. That lasted until 1972, after which you may be aware oil's price fluctuated somewhat.[3] Similar issues exist for other strategic minerals, as first grasped during WWII, leading to the creation of the Harbord List, now the U.S. Strategic Mineral Reserve.[4] (Oil is also subject to strategic reserves. You may be aware of an incident involving the U.S. Naval Strategic Petroleum Reserve a few years back, the Teapot Dome scandal of the Harding administration.[5]) Until the early 20th century, only direct labour was considered as a cost of production.[6] ________________________________ Notes: 1. https://dge.carnegiescience.edu/DGE/Dukes/Dukes_ClimChange1.pdf https://dge.carnegiescience.edu/DGE/Dukes/Dukes_ClimChange1.... See also https://redd.it/2cvap7 https://redd.it/2cvap7 and https://redd.it/1x9maq https://redd.it/1x9maq 2. Partial expansion here https://redd.it/5w1zw3 https://redd.it/5w1zw3 and here https://redd.it/5rnjg0 https://redd.it/5rnjg0 In particular, the religion and Young Earth Creationist associations are fascinating. 3 Daniel Yergin, The Prize, chapter 13 generally, though also the history of monopolies and cartels: Standard Oil, As-Is Agreement, Seven Sisters, National Producers, OPEC. http://www.worldcat.org/title/prize-the-epic-quest-for-oil-money-and-power/oclc/986188094 http://www.worldcat.org/title/prize-the-epic-quest-for-oil-m... For oil price, BP's Annual Statistical Review. See: http://static2.businessinsider.com/image/4defd684cadcbbe55e0d0000/chart-of-the-day-crude-oil-history-june-2011.jpg http://static2.businessinsider.com/image/4defd684cadcbbe55e0... Current report: http://www.bp.com/en/global/corporate/energy-economics/statistical-review-of-world-energy.html http://www.bp.com/en/global/corporate/energy-economics/stati... 4. E.g., http://www.marketoracle.co.uk/Article33647.html http://www.marketoracle.co.uk/Article33647.html 5. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Teapot_Dome_scandal https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Teapot_Dome_scandal 6. Alexander Hamilton Church, Production factors in cost accounting and works management, 1910, p. 9. https://archive.org/stream/productionfactor00churrich#page/8/mode/2up https://archive.org/stream/productionfactor00churrich#page/8...
- mprovost 9y ago
  You are probably paying that price no matter what - if you want apples out of season, you either have to keep them in a coolstore for months, or ship them from another part of the world where they are in season. It could be that buying local apples that are 6 months old has a higher impact than shipping them.
  - flyaway 9y ago
    Apples don't really all have the same "season" - even though they have a time to be picked, more tart apples are meant to be stored in cool conditions, with the starches converting to sugars and the acidity dropping over time. For example, the Newtown Pippin: http://www.nytimes.com/2003/11/05/dining/it-s-crunch-time-for-the-venerable-pippin.html http://www.nytimes.com/2003/11/05/dining/it-s-crunch-time-fo...
oasisbob 9y ago
> Why? Different apples need different climates. That cultivar originated in Australia. It needs a long hot growing season. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cripps_Pink https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cripps_Pink
wordupmaking 9y ago
And if someone buys a child prostitute, is that the market saying that's the most efficient allocation of resources and the best way for the predator to outlive their dysfunctions? Insert a less polemic example if you want, same point; it's a total non-sequitur. edit: if you can downvote, you can answer the question. I did my fair share of hard thinking about this, I come prepared, so until anyone has anything, this stands, and you'll either have to step up or live with that.

arcticfox 9y ago

I think the concern is about externalities like co2. It could also be a quality concern about doing stuff like picking food super raw and waiting for it to ripen in transit, which seems less than ideal. But your point about the efficient market is certainly valid FWIW.

cafebabbe 9y ago
How is it "efficient" if it means short-term collapse of the whole system?

moses-palmer 9y ago

I think that the reasoning against shipping apples across the globe is that consumers do not pay the full price; one might argue that the transportation is subsidised by our extraction and burning of oil at a rate much quicker than it is formed

civilian 9y ago
Hmmm, I can get behind the idea that oil isn't priced appropriately given it's externalities, but I would've focused on CO2, with a carbon tax being the solution, rather than looking at the rate at which oil is reformed.
- dredmorbius 9y ago
  Time is a factor of production. We are depleting oil reserves at about 5 million times the rate they formed.[1] Corollary: oil price reflects an off-books depletion factor of roughly 5 million-fold. The price is vastly too low. Our fossil fuel consumption translated to present total biomass production (NPP, or the "photosynthetic ceiling"), is a very substantial fraction of all plant growth, I believe about 40%. We currently account for 20% of NPP consumption without utilising biomass as fuel.[1] The history of why extractive natural resources are costed on a labour-required basis only (and some very questionable economic and legal theories support this) is an interesting accident of history, religion, law, geology, business, oil, and more. I've been digging into that, though have further to go. The short answer is that we'd started using the stuff long before we understood its creation, and by the time we understood we pretended not to care.[2] The history of oil price response to overextraction in particular is mesmerising, with the booms at Titusville, Spindletop, and East Texas especially. The latter saw price per barrel fall from a $1 target, to $0.13, and then further to $0.02/bbl, before the national (and effectively global) production quota system managed by, of all organisations, the Texas Railroad Commission, was established in 1931. That lasted until 1972, after which you may be aware oil's price fluctuated somewhat.[3] Similar issues exist for other strategic minerals, as first grasped during WWII, leading to the creation of the Harbord List, now the U.S. Strategic Mineral Reserve.[4] (Oil is also subject to strategic reserves. You may be aware of an incident involving the U.S. Naval Strategic Petroleum Reserve a few years back, the Teapot Dome scandal of the Harding administration.[5]) Until the early 20th century, only direct labour was considered as a cost of production.[6] ________________________________ Notes: 1. https://dge.carnegiescience.edu/DGE/Dukes/Dukes_ClimChange1.pdf https://dge.carnegiescience.edu/DGE/Dukes/Dukes_ClimChange1.... See also https://redd.it/2cvap7 https://redd.it/2cvap7 and https://redd.it/1x9maq https://redd.it/1x9maq 2. Partial expansion here https://redd.it/5w1zw3 https://redd.it/5w1zw3 and here https://redd.it/5rnjg0 https://redd.it/5rnjg0 In particular, the religion and Young Earth Creationist associations are fascinating. 3 Daniel Yergin, The Prize, chapter 13 generally, though also the history of monopolies and cartels: Standard Oil, As-Is Agreement, Seven Sisters, National Producers, OPEC. http://www.worldcat.org/title/prize-the-epic-quest-for-oil-money-and-power/oclc/986188094 http://www.worldcat.org/title/prize-the-epic-quest-for-oil-m... For oil price, BP's Annual Statistical Review. See: http://static2.businessinsider.com/image/4defd684cadcbbe55e0d0000/chart-of-the-day-crude-oil-history-june-2011.jpg http://static2.businessinsider.com/image/4defd684cadcbbe55e0... Current report: http://www.bp.com/en/global/corporate/energy-economics/statistical-review-of-world-energy.html http://www.bp.com/en/global/corporate/energy-economics/stati... 4. E.g., http://www.marketoracle.co.uk/Article33647.html http://www.marketoracle.co.uk/Article33647.html 5. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Teapot_Dome_scandal https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Teapot_Dome_scandal 6. Alexander Hamilton Church, Production factors in cost accounting and works management, 1910, p. 9. https://archive.org/stream/productionfactor00churrich#page/8/mode/2up https://archive.org/stream/productionfactor00churrich#page/8...
mprovost 9y ago
You are probably paying that price no matter what - if you want apples out of season, you either have to keep them in a coolstore for months, or ship them from another part of the world where they are in season. It could be that buying local apples that are 6 months old has a higher impact than shipping them.
- flyaway 9y ago
  Apples don't really all have the same "season" - even though they have a time to be picked, more tart apples are meant to be stored in cool conditions, with the starches converting to sugars and the acidity dropping over time. For example, the Newtown Pippin: http://www.nytimes.com/2003/11/05/dining/it-s-crunch-time-for-the-venerable-pippin.html http://www.nytimes.com/2003/11/05/dining/it-s-crunch-time-fo...

oasisbob 9y ago

> Why? Different apples need different climates. That cultivar originated in Australia. It needs a long hot growing season. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cripps_Pink https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cripps_Pink

wordupmaking 9y ago

And if someone buys a child prostitute, is that the market saying that's the most efficient allocation of resources and the best way for the predator to outlive their dysfunctions? Insert a less polemic example if you want, same point; it's a total non-sequitur. edit: if you can downvote, you can answer the question. I did my fair share of hard thinking about this, I come prepared, so until anyone has anything, this stands, and you'll either have to step up or live with that.