11 ms·

“It’s an obsolete model that doesn’t address the work conditions of the future,” says Louise Mozingo, an urban design professor at UC Berkeley." Everyone shoul

“It’s an obsolete model that doesn’t address the work conditions of the future,” says Louise Mozingo, an urban design professor at UC Berkeley." Everyone should note that Louise Mozingo has criticized the Apple campus from not having large open floor plans where employees can stare at each other across narrow tables and "collaborate" by yelling to one another over their co-workers heads. She simply doesn't get how software developers work. When I made the case for individual one person offices to the CFO at a 100 person software company, we calculated the extra cost of one person offices over cubicles or a shared layout would increase our cost per engineer about 1/2 of 1%. In relation to the productivity benefits, that's immensely trivial. We did it, and it worked great. And when engineers wanted to "collaborate", they'd go to each others offices without bothering anyone else! Amazing.

rxhernandez 10y ago
Oh man, this would be a great idea at my work. I don't even show up anymore, except for meetings, so that I don't get distracted every other hour by people talking about inane topics.
miranda_rights 10y ago
Can I ask which company it was? I'm making a mental list of companies to try to interview with once I graduate, and having offices sounds amazing.
- valuearb 10y ago
  This was long ago I'm afraid, not sure if still in business.
  - miranda_rights 10y ago
    Ah, That's ok. Thank you anyways!
- jshevek 10y ago
  The claim may well be manufactured from whole cloth
  - valuearb 10y ago
    Which part? What do find so fantastic about my story, that a CFO would think about team productivity in addition to costs? I will agree that CFO was a very rare and special bird.
Markoff 10y ago
increase of 0.5% for one person offices compared to cubicles sound highly unlikely, i don't think you can replace 2*2m cubicle with same size closed office for 0.5% increase in cost
- simonk 10y ago
  Cost of employee not the cost of building.
- valuearb 10y ago
  Yea, it was a while ago, but I think we estimated the cost around $500 a year, and our average cost per developer at $100k per year. IIRC we were paying around $20 per square foot, and the office sizes were small, like 8 by 8. So an extra 25 SF cost about $500 per year. You can make an office almost as small as a cubicle, the difference is you need space for a door to swing in, office walls are thicker than cubicle walls, and you need HVAC and power. So there is extra expense in the build-out, but that's trivial over time if you are going to stay there a long while. Edit: And even if you want 10 by 10 offices or my math is off, 1% a year is essentially trivial as well. Its the same old Peopleware/Mythical Man month issues. Lets say you have 10 developers who each have an average throughput of X working as a team, but you need to double output. You double the size of the team, but get only 17X output because of the overhead of working together, so you add more developers until you end up with 25 devs providing 20X output. What if instead you give everyone the latest fastest computers, individual offices, etc, and you make your devs 10% more productive? Now you only have increase the team size to 21 devs to get an output of 20x. Essentially you've saved 20% of your engineering payroll, over a half million dollars annually in todays dev costs, to achieve the same objective. The costs of providing a good productive workspace is trivial in comparison to it's benefits, no matter how you measure it.
  - Markoff 10y ago
    oh, i am all for efficiency and destroying cubicles, but my point was you can't just make walls of cubicle higher, put there door and call it office, office most have normal size, window, i think 3.5x3.5m is the minimum i could call room/office and that's like 3 times bigger than 2x2m cubicle (generous, world not be surprised even by smaller one), which makes it at 215$/m2 per year 1700$ additional cost per worker, not including building cost, but yeah you are right i guess, it's relatively negligible because you were in some extremely cheap place while paying devs quite reasonable salaries, so there is discrepancy i just checked some prices and even in very cheap European capitals you would be looking into like 120$/m2, in bigger few times more https://www.statista.com/statistics/431672/commercial-property-prime-rents-europe/ https://www.statista.com/statistics/431672/commercial-proper... though after reading this it seem relatively cheap, seem actually cheaper than apartment, i am surprised people don't form together fake company to rent office spaces instead of apartments, they can get better deal with location and price, just kitchen and bathroom won't be so accessible
jumpkickhit 10y ago
This is great! Too many companies are in the 1920's, where they want an open plan so bosses can stare at people while they work.
- Keyframe 10y ago
  Preferably from a raised platform of sorts.
  - pinot 10y ago
    Standing desk and an apple box.
- JBlue42 9y ago
  Work for an architecture firm. The lead partner specifically bought a new office just for this. All 100+ of us on the same floor vs our 7-8 person rooms we're currently in. Also, new office building was expensive so raises were only given to adjust for inflation across the board.
threeseed 10y ago
> She simply doesn't get how software developers work. It's not just software developers. A significant percentage of the population are or lean towards being introverted i.e. social interactions do not make them necessarily happier or more productive. And experts have been saying that being creative requires some periods of interaction and some periods of solitude. Seems like office spaces should reflect that.
- dionidium 10y ago
  I wish this were better accepted. You can list out the benefits of pair programming until the sun burns out, but, all things equal, I'm going to choose the job that comes without the soul-crushing anxiety of sharing a keyboard with another human being every day.
- paulcole 10y ago
  > introverted i.e. social interactions do not make them necessarily happier or more productive Soon there will be more definitions of introversion than there are actual introverts.
- icanhackit 10y ago
  I work in a flexible seating or "activity-based" work space. I get to sit near HR from time to time. When reviewing user feedback about the work space I've heard them say, I quote, "That guy is an introvert, of course he'd say that..." while shaking their heads. When reviewing training and information session feedback "Introverts are less emotionally intelligent than we are, they're bound to react that way." Finally when reporting on work space feedback results they say the response is "overwhelmingly positive" but never quote figures or provide a breakdown of responses. Extroverts control the office space and culture, as they tend to gravitate to the kinds of fields/departments that coordinate those aspects. Working from home is our only hope, as they seem to have an almost militant distaste for personalities that don't blend with their vision of how things should be.
deleted 10y ago
[deleted]
pklausler 10y ago
As I sit here, wearing 3M landscaping crew earmuffs over Bluetooth AirPod earphones, trying to concentrate in my "modern collaborative" workplace full of Tupperware percussionists, permanently hacking coughers, and endless mindless sports conversations, I kind of want to meet this "urban design professor" who thinks this was all a good idea and find out what kind of office she sits in.
- golergka 10y ago
  It could be worse. Imagine sitting in an office full of artists and game designers, and a special TV to put music videos on, the whole day.
jt2190 10y ago
> Everyone should note that Louise Mozingo has criticized the Apple campus... The quote from the article appears to be related to Apple Park's lack of a childcare facility. (I assume they can easily remedy this.) I can't find any of her criticism elsewhere. Mind sharing some links? (edit: Found something from 2011. No mention of the interior space though. http://articles.latimes.com/2011/sep/10/entertainment/la-ca-applehq-20110911/2 http://articles.latimes.com/2011/sep/10/entertainment/la-ca-...)
- jshevek 10y ago
  Are you suggesting that the parent took a quote out of context, in order to criticize a critic of the apple campus?
  - valuearb 10y ago
    Obviously I didn't. Quotes provided.
- valuearb 10y ago
  'For all the time and money sunk into the project, some in the architecture community question whether Apple has focused on the right ends. The campus is something of an exception to the trend of radically open offices aimed at fostering collaboration, said Louise Mozingo, a professor and chair of the Department of Landscape Architecture and Environmental Planning at U.C. Berkeley. Its central office building – a massive ring of glass frequently likened to a spaceship – could be a challenge just to navigate, she noted. "It's not about maximizing the productivity of the office space, it's about creating a symbolic center for this global company," she said"' http://www.reuters.com/article/us-apple-campus-idUSKBN15M0CM http://www.reuters.com/article/us-apple-campus-idUSKBN15M0CM “Mainstream architectural trends are open office space to foster co-operation,” said Louise Mozingo, professor of landscape architecture and urban design in University of California, Berkeley, in an interview with Reuters. “At this point, Apple's new headquarters appears to be an alien.” http://www.yicaiglobal.com/news/50051734.html http://www.yicaiglobal.com/news/50051734.html I suspect her quote from the new article has nothing to do with child-care, and was bastardized from her previous comments.
Nimitz14 10y ago
I'm a software developer. I'd hate that.

rxhernandez 10y ago

Oh man, this would be a great idea at my work. I don't even show up anymore, except for meetings, so that I don't get distracted every other hour by people talking about inane topics.

miranda_rights 10y ago

Can I ask which company it was? I'm making a mental list of companies to try to interview with once I graduate, and having offices sounds amazing.

valuearb 10y ago
This was long ago I'm afraid, not sure if still in business.
- miranda_rights 10y ago
  Ah, That's ok. Thank you anyways!
jshevek 10y ago
The claim may well be manufactured from whole cloth
- valuearb 10y ago
  Which part? What do find so fantastic about my story, that a CFO would think about team productivity in addition to costs? I will agree that CFO was a very rare and special bird.

Markoff 10y ago

increase of 0.5% for one person offices compared to cubicles sound highly unlikely, i don't think you can replace 2*2m cubicle with same size closed office for 0.5% increase in cost

simonk 10y ago
Cost of employee not the cost of building.
valuearb 10y ago
Yea, it was a while ago, but I think we estimated the cost around $500 a year, and our average cost per developer at $100k per year. IIRC we were paying around $20 per square foot, and the office sizes were small, like 8 by 8. So an extra 25 SF cost about $500 per year. You can make an office almost as small as a cubicle, the difference is you need space for a door to swing in, office walls are thicker than cubicle walls, and you need HVAC and power. So there is extra expense in the build-out, but that's trivial over time if you are going to stay there a long while. Edit: And even if you want 10 by 10 offices or my math is off, 1% a year is essentially trivial as well. Its the same old Peopleware/Mythical Man month issues. Lets say you have 10 developers who each have an average throughput of X working as a team, but you need to double output. You double the size of the team, but get only 17X output because of the overhead of working together, so you add more developers until you end up with 25 devs providing 20X output. What if instead you give everyone the latest fastest computers, individual offices, etc, and you make your devs 10% more productive? Now you only have increase the team size to 21 devs to get an output of 20x. Essentially you've saved 20% of your engineering payroll, over a half million dollars annually in todays dev costs, to achieve the same objective. The costs of providing a good productive workspace is trivial in comparison to it's benefits, no matter how you measure it.
- Markoff 10y ago
  oh, i am all for efficiency and destroying cubicles, but my point was you can't just make walls of cubicle higher, put there door and call it office, office most have normal size, window, i think 3.5x3.5m is the minimum i could call room/office and that's like 3 times bigger than 2x2m cubicle (generous, world not be surprised even by smaller one), which makes it at 215$/m2 per year 1700$ additional cost per worker, not including building cost, but yeah you are right i guess, it's relatively negligible because you were in some extremely cheap place while paying devs quite reasonable salaries, so there is discrepancy i just checked some prices and even in very cheap European capitals you would be looking into like 120$/m2, in bigger few times more https://www.statista.com/statistics/431672/commercial-property-prime-rents-europe/ https://www.statista.com/statistics/431672/commercial-proper... though after reading this it seem relatively cheap, seem actually cheaper than apartment, i am surprised people don't form together fake company to rent office spaces instead of apartments, they can get better deal with location and price, just kitchen and bathroom won't be so accessible

jumpkickhit 10y ago

This is great! Too many companies are in the 1920's, where they want an open plan so bosses can stare at people while they work.

Keyframe 10y ago
Preferably from a raised platform of sorts.
- pinot 10y ago
  Standing desk and an apple box.
JBlue42 9y ago
Work for an architecture firm. The lead partner specifically bought a new office just for this. All 100+ of us on the same floor vs our 7-8 person rooms we're currently in. Also, new office building was expensive so raises were only given to adjust for inflation across the board.

threeseed 10y ago

> She simply doesn't get how software developers work. It's not just software developers. A significant percentage of the population are or lean towards being introverted i.e. social interactions do not make them necessarily happier or more productive. And experts have been saying that being creative requires some periods of interaction and some periods of solitude. Seems like office spaces should reflect that.

dionidium 10y ago
I wish this were better accepted. You can list out the benefits of pair programming until the sun burns out, but, all things equal, I'm going to choose the job that comes without the soul-crushing anxiety of sharing a keyboard with another human being every day.
paulcole 10y ago
> introverted i.e. social interactions do not make them necessarily happier or more productive Soon there will be more definitions of introversion than there are actual introverts.
icanhackit 10y ago
I work in a flexible seating or "activity-based" work space. I get to sit near HR from time to time. When reviewing user feedback about the work space I've heard them say, I quote, "That guy is an introvert, of course he'd say that..." while shaking their heads. When reviewing training and information session feedback "Introverts are less emotionally intelligent than we are, they're bound to react that way." Finally when reporting on work space feedback results they say the response is "overwhelmingly positive" but never quote figures or provide a breakdown of responses. Extroverts control the office space and culture, as they tend to gravitate to the kinds of fields/departments that coordinate those aspects. Working from home is our only hope, as they seem to have an almost militant distaste for personalities that don't blend with their vision of how things should be.

deleted 10y ago

[deleted]

pklausler 10y ago

As I sit here, wearing 3M landscaping crew earmuffs over Bluetooth AirPod earphones, trying to concentrate in my "modern collaborative" workplace full of Tupperware percussionists, permanently hacking coughers, and endless mindless sports conversations, I kind of want to meet this "urban design professor" who thinks this was all a good idea and find out what kind of office she sits in.

golergka 10y ago
It could be worse. Imagine sitting in an office full of artists and game designers, and a special TV to put music videos on, the whole day.

jt2190 10y ago

> Everyone should note that Louise Mozingo has criticized the Apple campus... The quote from the article appears to be related to Apple Park's lack of a childcare facility. (I assume they can easily remedy this.) I can't find any of her criticism elsewhere. Mind sharing some links? (edit: Found something from 2011. No mention of the interior space though. http://articles.latimes.com/2011/sep/10/entertainment/la-ca-applehq-20110911/2 http://articles.latimes.com/2011/sep/10/entertainment/la-ca-...)

jshevek 10y ago
Are you suggesting that the parent took a quote out of context, in order to criticize a critic of the apple campus?
- valuearb 10y ago
  Obviously I didn't. Quotes provided.
valuearb 10y ago
'For all the time and money sunk into the project, some in the architecture community question whether Apple has focused on the right ends. The campus is something of an exception to the trend of radically open offices aimed at fostering collaboration, said Louise Mozingo, a professor and chair of the Department of Landscape Architecture and Environmental Planning at U.C. Berkeley. Its central office building – a massive ring of glass frequently likened to a spaceship – could be a challenge just to navigate, she noted. "It's not about maximizing the productivity of the office space, it's about creating a symbolic center for this global company," she said"' http://www.reuters.com/article/us-apple-campus-idUSKBN15M0CM http://www.reuters.com/article/us-apple-campus-idUSKBN15M0CM “Mainstream architectural trends are open office space to foster co-operation,” said Louise Mozingo, professor of landscape architecture and urban design in University of California, Berkeley, in an interview with Reuters. “At this point, Apple's new headquarters appears to be an alien.” http://www.yicaiglobal.com/news/50051734.html http://www.yicaiglobal.com/news/50051734.html I suspect her quote from the new article has nothing to do with child-care, and was bastardized from her previous comments.

Nimitz14 10y ago

I'm a software developer. I'd hate that.