6 ms·

This is really cool, but I feel some skepticism. I grew up in metro Detroit, live nearby in A2, and commute to Detroit proper weekly for meetings. A lot of the

by nooron 9y ago

This is really cool, but I feel some skepticism. I grew up in metro Detroit, live nearby in A2, and commute to Detroit proper weekly for meetings. A lot of the people moving to Detroit are like me -- young, unmarried, working in creative, marketing or tech. We are able to have a lot of fun living there. But relatively few of us stay as we age and get married and build families, for fairly sound reasons, like poor quality of schools and poor quality of emergency services. I worry that we are building a place to be partied but not really lived in.

amyjess 9y ago
Now I'm curious: what about Detroit makes it attractive as a party town?
- wcunning 9y ago
  Look up the history of Theater Bizarre and go down the rabbit hole at your own leisure. Edit: Sorry that feels very google it for yourself. I don't mean it that way. That's a good starting topic to find the other crazy things that happen here. The Dirty Show is another one.
  - beamatronic 9y ago
    I didn't take it that way. You offered up a ( in Amazon's parlance ) a Statistically Improbable Phrase, which presumably is a noun, and presumably has something to do with the parent topic. Not only that, you offered a helpful disclaimer which showed great respect for your reader's time. I award you 8 out of 10 points.
- MacsHeadroom 9y ago
  Cheap venues and next to no enforcement of last call or other alcohol laws, no ID checking, bar tenders and bouncers are often drug dealers... the list goes on.
- mikeyouse 9y ago
  To be over-dramatic, there's a big push with the young end of the millennial generation for 'authentic' and unique experiences. Shallowly, that's why restaurants like Chipotle are beating restaurants like TGI Fridays with this generation -- all that fake schlock all over the walls turns them off. Since Detroit is so cheap and has such a rich history, there's a ton of room for people to create cool little niche businesses that connect with the city's past. There are distilleries in 1930s-era factories and pop-up restaurants started by Michelin-star chefs tucked in little corners. There's a much different atmosphere when you're at a gin bar in an old neighborhood to a nightclub in the suburbs somewhere. And if you like the more traditional bar scene, all four major sports teams will be downtown next year, with a huge new entertainment district coming to the Red Wings / Pistons' new arena. Beyond that, people like to be the underdog. Detroit went through worse than almost any other American city in history and is starting to come out the other side now. Many of the people moving (or partying) downtown are from the suburbs or the surrounding area and take it personally that it's still regularly trash-talked nationwide. There's a very positive "us-against-the-world" energy to the city and I think a lot of people feel a responsibility to encourage the "comeback" by supporting the businesses that are helping the area.
- verg 9y ago
  Detroit is the birthplace of Techno and Techno artists have continued to emerge from Detroit even as it's status as a city has declined. Because of this the city is idealized among Techno fans across Europe. My guess is some of this development is trying to target this European base.
  - bluedino 9y ago
    Detroit has sizable Russian and Polish populations
jerf 9y ago
One step at a time. In the meantime you're putting money in to the area, which funds development, which funds the next round of growth, which funds more development, etc. If you cut the process off at the beginning because you didn't get to the end-stage goal in one shot, you will never get there.
- nooron 9y ago
  I agree with this, and I appreciate the sentiment you're espousing. But there have been a lot of very costly "This will REVITALIZE the city projects" that haven't panned out. And much of what happens in the city's core -- like the new Illitch stadium -- is funded via questionable means and produces dubious economic returns. I don't want to sound like a negative person or a bear on the city. I am generally positive, and am excited about its growth. I don't think asking tough questions about how we're trying to build Detroit should diminish our enthusiasm for the task, but we should ask them.
  - jerf 9y ago
    Yeah. I'd love it if there was some way to somehow ban politicians from "prestige" projects. It's impossible, since they would be the ones that would do the banning, and they won't and can't. The last thing Detroit needs right now is flashy silver bullets to bring prestige to its politicians; it needs sustained organic growth and the conditions that encourage that.
    - bilbo0s 9y ago
      The problem is... Rebuilding Detroit is, itself, a "prestige" project in the eyes of many. Or, put more directly... your definition of "prestige" project may not line up with another's definition of "prestige" project. Which are to be funded? Which are not to be funded? You'll get into never ending debates if you go down that rabbit hole.
      - jerf 9y ago
        I don't play the "I can't draw a mathematically-perfect line precisely separating the universe into two parts therefore you can't draw a line at all" game. That's just sophomoric philosophy masquerading as wisdom. I have absolutely no problem at all living with the idea that I know prestige projects when I see them, and that there may sometimes be borderline cases.
mklim 9y ago
I lived in Midtown for ~5 years in 2010. I've heard it described by disillusioned longtime residents as "two cities" at once--there's the flashy Greater Downtown developments that suburban outsiders and young transplants take advantage of--the million and one microbreweries, the great dive bars and concerts, the locally grown organic handmade (artisan shop|bakery|barbershop|restaurants), the low (if rising) rents, the incredible art museums, etc. There's brands like Shinola that completely base their marketing off the image of an "authentic", scrappy city fighting back, even. But the actual longterm residents, especially the ones living in the vast majority of the city that falls outside of the Greater Downtown area, still have to deal with trying to commute with DDOT, the abysmal public infrastructure, and the horrifically underfunded public school system, etc, and those multifaceted and crippling issues don't see the same kind of widespread attention/praise/improvements because there's no sexiness there and no short term money to be made off of it. And no easy answers, either, it's not as simple trying to fix public transportation in the city as it is opening a coffee house on Palmer. There's attempts being made, but at least anecdotally they don't seem to generate the same press or have the same kind of investment behind them. I don't think it's as simple as whether or not the city is coming "back"--there's a lot of layers to that. "Back" by what definition, and for who?
- nooron 9y ago
  Thank you for telling your story. I think you are making very good points. I'm in favor of all the flashy development, and I don't think we should feel bad about building it. But the problems you cite here are the ones I worry we are neglecting, and I think your framing of the question at the end of your post is right on.
  - mklim 9y ago
    Yeah. I think we're on the same page. I think the flashy Greater Downtown development is generally positive, I don't mean to be down on it--that would be especially hypocritical of me, as a former Midtown young adult transplant--it's just that a lot of times it's portrayed through this lens where it's as if the city was this completely empty and barren wasteland and here is this new artisan coffee shop charging into the wilderness to save the world and Establish Civilization. When the city is not an empty wasteland. There are hundreds of thousands of people already living there, they've been living there for decades, and a fancy bakery is nice but probably isn't going to help them with any of the public infrastructure issues they've been actually struggling with and trying to get attention to for years and years now.

by nooron 9y ago

amyjess 9y ago

Now I'm curious: what about Detroit makes it attractive as a party town?

wcunning 9y ago
Look up the history of Theater Bizarre and go down the rabbit hole at your own leisure. Edit: Sorry that feels very google it for yourself. I don't mean it that way. That's a good starting topic to find the other crazy things that happen here. The Dirty Show is another one.
- beamatronic 9y ago
  I didn't take it that way. You offered up a ( in Amazon's parlance ) a Statistically Improbable Phrase, which presumably is a noun, and presumably has something to do with the parent topic. Not only that, you offered a helpful disclaimer which showed great respect for your reader's time. I award you 8 out of 10 points.
MacsHeadroom 9y ago
Cheap venues and next to no enforcement of last call or other alcohol laws, no ID checking, bar tenders and bouncers are often drug dealers... the list goes on.
mikeyouse 9y ago
To be over-dramatic, there's a big push with the young end of the millennial generation for 'authentic' and unique experiences. Shallowly, that's why restaurants like Chipotle are beating restaurants like TGI Fridays with this generation -- all that fake schlock all over the walls turns them off. Since Detroit is so cheap and has such a rich history, there's a ton of room for people to create cool little niche businesses that connect with the city's past. There are distilleries in 1930s-era factories and pop-up restaurants started by Michelin-star chefs tucked in little corners. There's a much different atmosphere when you're at a gin bar in an old neighborhood to a nightclub in the suburbs somewhere. And if you like the more traditional bar scene, all four major sports teams will be downtown next year, with a huge new entertainment district coming to the Red Wings / Pistons' new arena. Beyond that, people like to be the underdog. Detroit went through worse than almost any other American city in history and is starting to come out the other side now. Many of the people moving (or partying) downtown are from the suburbs or the surrounding area and take it personally that it's still regularly trash-talked nationwide. There's a very positive "us-against-the-world" energy to the city and I think a lot of people feel a responsibility to encourage the "comeback" by supporting the businesses that are helping the area.
verg 9y ago
Detroit is the birthplace of Techno and Techno artists have continued to emerge from Detroit even as it's status as a city has declined. Because of this the city is idealized among Techno fans across Europe. My guess is some of this development is trying to target this European base.
- bluedino 9y ago
  Detroit has sizable Russian and Polish populations

jerf 9y ago

One step at a time. In the meantime you're putting money in to the area, which funds development, which funds the next round of growth, which funds more development, etc. If you cut the process off at the beginning because you didn't get to the end-stage goal in one shot, you will never get there.

nooron 9y ago
I agree with this, and I appreciate the sentiment you're espousing. But there have been a lot of very costly "This will REVITALIZE the city projects" that haven't panned out. And much of what happens in the city's core -- like the new Illitch stadium -- is funded via questionable means and produces dubious economic returns. I don't want to sound like a negative person or a bear on the city. I am generally positive, and am excited about its growth. I don't think asking tough questions about how we're trying to build Detroit should diminish our enthusiasm for the task, but we should ask them.
- jerf 9y ago
  Yeah. I'd love it if there was some way to somehow ban politicians from "prestige" projects. It's impossible, since they would be the ones that would do the banning, and they won't and can't. The last thing Detroit needs right now is flashy silver bullets to bring prestige to its politicians; it needs sustained organic growth and the conditions that encourage that.
  - bilbo0s 9y ago
    The problem is... Rebuilding Detroit is, itself, a "prestige" project in the eyes of many. Or, put more directly... your definition of "prestige" project may not line up with another's definition of "prestige" project. Which are to be funded? Which are not to be funded? You'll get into never ending debates if you go down that rabbit hole.
    - jerf 9y ago
      I don't play the "I can't draw a mathematically-perfect line precisely separating the universe into two parts therefore you can't draw a line at all" game. That's just sophomoric philosophy masquerading as wisdom. I have absolutely no problem at all living with the idea that I know prestige projects when I see them, and that there may sometimes be borderline cases.

mklim 9y ago

I lived in Midtown for ~5 years in 2010. I've heard it described by disillusioned longtime residents as "two cities" at once--there's the flashy Greater Downtown developments that suburban outsiders and young transplants take advantage of--the million and one microbreweries, the great dive bars and concerts, the locally grown organic handmade (artisan shop|bakery|barbershop|restaurants), the low (if rising) rents, the incredible art museums, etc. There's brands like Shinola that completely base their marketing off the image of an "authentic", scrappy city fighting back, even. But the actual longterm residents, especially the ones living in the vast majority of the city that falls outside of the Greater Downtown area, still have to deal with trying to commute with DDOT, the abysmal public infrastructure, and the horrifically underfunded public school system, etc, and those multifaceted and crippling issues don't see the same kind of widespread attention/praise/improvements because there's no sexiness there and no short term money to be made off of it. And no easy answers, either, it's not as simple trying to fix public transportation in the city as it is opening a coffee house on Palmer. There's attempts being made, but at least anecdotally they don't seem to generate the same press or have the same kind of investment behind them. I don't think it's as simple as whether or not the city is coming "back"--there's a lot of layers to that. "Back" by what definition, and for who?

nooron 9y ago
Thank you for telling your story. I think you are making very good points. I'm in favor of all the flashy development, and I don't think we should feel bad about building it. But the problems you cite here are the ones I worry we are neglecting, and I think your framing of the question at the end of your post is right on.
- mklim 9y ago
  Yeah. I think we're on the same page. I think the flashy Greater Downtown development is generally positive, I don't mean to be down on it--that would be especially hypocritical of me, as a former Midtown young adult transplant--it's just that a lot of times it's portrayed through this lens where it's as if the city was this completely empty and barren wasteland and here is this new artisan coffee shop charging into the wilderness to save the world and Establish Civilization. When the city is not an empty wasteland. There are hundreds of thousands of people already living there, they've been living there for decades, and a fancy bakery is nice but probably isn't going to help them with any of the public infrastructure issues they've been actually struggling with and trying to get attention to for years and years now.