4 ms·

I won't defend the stamp thing's discoverability (though it's not that bad—and besides, if you know what an envelope is you probably know what a stamp is, and i

by ashark 9y ago

I won't defend the stamp thing's discoverability (though it's not that bad—and besides, if you know what an envelope is you probably know what a stamp is, and if you don't then it's because you're somehow encountering envelopes exclusively in non-mail contexts so how is that going to be associated with mail for you? Anyway...) but I don't think it matters how appropriate an icon they use if half of them are same-proportioned, white, and sitting in identical blue squares that are mostly wasted ("negative") space, compared with MacOS icons that are larger in proportion to the space they're granted and use color so you can tell what they are without having to look directly at them. Looking back at Leopard screenshots (I assume that's part of the era with the supposed excessive-shininess?) those icons were slightly worse because smaller (probably configurable though? I don't remember) but their shape seems to be a bit more apparent and distinctive (most of mine on Sierra are squares or circles) so I'd call it a wash, usability-wise. Maybe slightly favoring the new ones because color is easier to distinguish in peripheral vision than shape. I'm not seeing a practical problem with the use of depth, aside from "depth is bad now, because reasons". Microsoft's Win10 design is like the kind of thing developers come up with when they manage to banish designers from a project—not saying that's what happened, and I doubt it is, but it really looks like it (I can't get over that drop-down box, god, it's like I tried to style it). It's incredibly bad. It reminds me of really old "how to make your web forms pretty" tutorials from the pre-CSS days. I seriously thought I was in some kind of safe-mode when I started it up the first time. [EDIT] actually, rather than pre-CSS, let's specifically go with "when people used the term DHTML". STRONGLY reminiscent of that time period—but not of finished websites, of web design tutorials from that time period.

nailer 9y ago
> besides, if you know what an envelope is you probably know what a stamp An envelope is an arbitrary thing that means email. Much like a floppy disk is an arbitrary thing that means save. The postal system and floppy drives are about as relevant as each other. I prefer the taskbar icon look - ie, raw shape - than the colored background look too. But the raw shapes certainly are far more better than the distracting, detailed pictures which serve only their designers. The Win10 design is what happens when designers consider users over themselves. I think you're favouring OS X simply because you're familiar with it. But it's clear that Android since 4, OS X since 10.10 are all following the same direction that Microsoft popularised way back in the Zune era. If you got 1000 people who'd never used a computer before, and asked them to find 'mail' between the 'envelope' and the 'picture of the eagle with the scalloped background' were mail it's predictable what the outcome would be.
- 5ilv3r 9y ago
  Right, now give me 6 apps with the same mail icon and help me find the one I like. The one that supports my mail provider and has my contacts in it. Not the other ones. The bird is distinct. I know it's thunderbird because that's the icon thunderbird uses. I can upgrade windows and still find it. If you are making things easier for new users but ALSO worse for existing users, you're not doing anyone any good.
- ashark 9y ago
  You... really think icons are more user-friendly if you take away color differentiation? I find that entirely confusing. It's the result of a "make this interface look like something out of a Mission Impossible movie, we want those screenshots to look slick!" directive, not a user-friendliness effort. [EDIT] As for familiarity, I started on DOS, was a Windows user from 3.1 through 10 (finally ditched 10 a couple weeks ago because it pissed me off one too many times) including NT3.5 and 4, plus 2K, and mixed in a ton of Linux plus a fair amount of BeOS and a touch of QNX starting around the Win98 era. I've used KDE since IIRC late version 1 or early 2, Gnome since before it was bad, and spent lots of time in both Windowmaker and XFCE for good measure. I've used CDE on Solaris in anger. I only jumped on Apple devices ~5-6 years ago for work. With all that context, I feel confident asserting that the Win10 interface looks like the punchline to a joke that I just don't get—it's got nothing to do with exclusive familiarity with Apple.
  - nailer 9y ago
    Reducing detail focuses on what's important. I've used all those systems you have, and the worst are ones where someone had tried to use the entire palette or colors and greatest graphic detail in shapes.

by ashark 9y ago

nailer 9y ago

> besides, if you know what an envelope is you probably know what a stamp An envelope is an arbitrary thing that means email. Much like a floppy disk is an arbitrary thing that means save. The postal system and floppy drives are about as relevant as each other. I prefer the taskbar icon look - ie, raw shape - than the colored background look too. But the raw shapes certainly are far more better than the distracting, detailed pictures which serve only their designers. The Win10 design is what happens when designers consider users over themselves. I think you're favouring OS X simply because you're familiar with it. But it's clear that Android since 4, OS X since 10.10 are all following the same direction that Microsoft popularised way back in the Zune era. If you got 1000 people who'd never used a computer before, and asked them to find 'mail' between the 'envelope' and the 'picture of the eagle with the scalloped background' were mail it's predictable what the outcome would be.

5ilv3r 9y ago
Right, now give me 6 apps with the same mail icon and help me find the one I like. The one that supports my mail provider and has my contacts in it. Not the other ones. The bird is distinct. I know it's thunderbird because that's the icon thunderbird uses. I can upgrade windows and still find it. If you are making things easier for new users but ALSO worse for existing users, you're not doing anyone any good.
ashark 9y ago
You... really think icons are more user-friendly if you take away color differentiation? I find that entirely confusing. It's the result of a "make this interface look like something out of a Mission Impossible movie, we want those screenshots to look slick!" directive, not a user-friendliness effort. [EDIT] As for familiarity, I started on DOS, was a Windows user from 3.1 through 10 (finally ditched 10 a couple weeks ago because it pissed me off one too many times) including NT3.5 and 4, plus 2K, and mixed in a ton of Linux plus a fair amount of BeOS and a touch of QNX starting around the Win98 era. I've used KDE since IIRC late version 1 or early 2, Gnome since before it was bad, and spent lots of time in both Windowmaker and XFCE for good measure. I've used CDE on Solaris in anger. I only jumped on Apple devices ~5-6 years ago for work. With all that context, I feel confident asserting that the Win10 interface looks like the punchline to a joke that I just don't get—it's got nothing to do with exclusive familiarity with Apple.
- nailer 9y ago
  Reducing detail focuses on what's important. I've used all those systems you have, and the worst are ones where someone had tried to use the entire palette or colors and greatest graphic detail in shapes.