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> I think the more interesting question is, if you could live even if society didn't value what you were doing, and you could do anything (even nothing) and sti

> I think the more interesting question is, if you could live even if society didn't value what you were doing, and you could do anything (even nothing) and still be provided with everything you need to survive - what would happen to individuals and what would happen to society? It would be very very hard to find basic services like, a plumber. I know that because I live on an island where most people are retired and reasonably well off. Off-island services are reluctant to take the ferry over because it's too much trouble. I kind of imagine a basic income society would become like that. I believe there are few who would do the grungier work if they didn't have to. We'd all be tired of art and poetry and stuff because we'd have loads and loads of artists. Art is valuable because of its rarity and seeming extravagance in a world pressed for time. But please, I hope basic income happens. I'm weary of our absurd slave work ethic aesthetic. Between robots, Walmart and Amazon, I think its obvious that capitalism is reaching its end-game state. Let's evolve to a new way of living that is more about happiness and less about competing for the dollah.

glegeza 9y ago
For what little it's worth, two members of my extended family are plumbers and both do it because they genuinely enjoy it. Both are also self-employed, so there's that. I worked with one of them in my early 20s and "dirty" jobs like that aren't half as unappealing as they seem. The truth is, any kind of basic service like that actually ends up being very social work. People are generally happy to have someone who can come and solve real problems and you tend to develop meaningful relationships with the people that you do work for. I wouldn't call it an objectively worse gig than the contract development I do nowadays, aside from the fact that it paid drastically less. That said, if this actually is a problem then it's one you can solve by paying people more. We skate by right now because the need to work just to survive acts as a kind of economic coercion that tips the balance of power drastically against labor, which in turn allows abusive employers to pay people less than they would have to in a "balanced" labor market. Remove that coercion and people will still do otherwise undesirable jobs if you pay them enough.
- diyseguy 9y ago
  Not trying to cast any shade on plumbers. Full respect to them, getting under the house, into the crawlspaces with the random wharf rats and other surprises. And they make more than I do, which is already a lot by my standards. Having gone a full three weeks without hot water, I almost want to build a bronze statue of them for the front lawn, that's how much I appreciate what they do. And no doubt, there are people who just generally enjoy fixing things and solving problems. I enjoy that too. However, I imagine in a world where basic needs are met. (Trust me I want this world very much.) I wonder if more money would be enough of a motivator. I sort of imagine this future world divided into two classes of people. Those who want to kill themselves working to get the next greatest iphone every year. And those would rather sit on the porch in a rocking chair enjoying the day. I envision, with basic income, the latter group gaining gradual majority - with people bunking up, combining their basic incomes to support a collective where they go back to farming and other forms of self-sufficiency. The status seekers vs the survivalists.

glegeza 9y ago

For what little it's worth, two members of my extended family are plumbers and both do it because they genuinely enjoy it. Both are also self-employed, so there's that. I worked with one of them in my early 20s and "dirty" jobs like that aren't half as unappealing as they seem. The truth is, any kind of basic service like that actually ends up being very social work. People are generally happy to have someone who can come and solve real problems and you tend to develop meaningful relationships with the people that you do work for. I wouldn't call it an objectively worse gig than the contract development I do nowadays, aside from the fact that it paid drastically less. That said, if this actually is a problem then it's one you can solve by paying people more. We skate by right now because the need to work just to survive acts as a kind of economic coercion that tips the balance of power drastically against labor, which in turn allows abusive employers to pay people less than they would have to in a "balanced" labor market. Remove that coercion and people will still do otherwise undesirable jobs if you pay them enough.

diyseguy 9y ago
Not trying to cast any shade on plumbers. Full respect to them, getting under the house, into the crawlspaces with the random wharf rats and other surprises. And they make more than I do, which is already a lot by my standards. Having gone a full three weeks without hot water, I almost want to build a bronze statue of them for the front lawn, that's how much I appreciate what they do. And no doubt, there are people who just generally enjoy fixing things and solving problems. I enjoy that too. However, I imagine in a world where basic needs are met. (Trust me I want this world very much.) I wonder if more money would be enough of a motivator. I sort of imagine this future world divided into two classes of people. Those who want to kill themselves working to get the next greatest iphone every year. And those would rather sit on the porch in a rocking chair enjoying the day. I envision, with basic income, the latter group gaining gradual majority - with people bunking up, combining their basic incomes to support a collective where they go back to farming and other forms of self-sufficiency. The status seekers vs the survivalists.