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> No business plan. I am not going to have one ever:-). On a more serious note, I am not selling out or going to ask for capital ever. The only person that nee

by irahul 16y ago

> No business plan. I am not going to have one ever:-). On a more serious note, I am not selling out or going to ask for capital ever. The only person that needs to be convinced of the business value is me and I am convinced. > No market analysis. And that would affect me how? If there is an existing market for it, I am tapping into it. There is an existing market; I didn't feel the need to do research to prove that people are interested in selling things online and e-commerce is hard and if you are a merchant, you are more interested in selling thing than taking the pains of implementing it. If there isn't an existing market for it(hypothetically speaking), I know people want to sell things. If they aren't selling it online already, it's only because the services aren't up to the mark, and that would be a good thing for me. > No real idea of who will use your shopping service and why. No, there isn't a real idea. The idea will change every week with the implementation and keep on changing until something clicks. But the ground rules are laid out. The service is for anyone who wants to sell things online and does not have the time/resource/interest to implement it himself. It is for you if you want to sell tee shirts with funny graffiti; it is for you if you are a writer who is embracing new media and wants to sell his ebooks; it is for you if you are selling anything online. You can either attach the widget to your existing blog/site(would be helpful for web-cartoonists or people who already run a high traffic site) or create a new store and host us with us. > No description of value, benefits, and features. Value and benefits are what I have already detailed. I have just begun and features would be finalized as we work on it. If that looks like bad planning to you, so be it. That's the mode that suits me. > Reads like wishful thinking and dreams of grandeur. We will see about it:-). > All you have is an idea and a domain name. I didn't claim otherwise.

yesimahuman 16y ago
Although akadien's response was a bit blunt, your response shows that you aren't willing to listen to criticism. Relax, and really try to open yourself to what other people have to say. This is something I've really been learning the last year or so running my company. You might not agree with everything everyone has to say (and you don't have to, it is your company, after all), but you do want to be successful, and you haven't been yet, so don't be so quick to get defensive when other people have feedback and criticism.
- irahul 16y ago
  > your response shows that you aren't willing to listen to criticism. I am. But as a critic, shouldn't you be willing to listen to counter-arguments as well? After all, a discussion isn't one sided. > don't be so quick to get defensive when other people have feedback and criticism. Ummm..So what's the take-away here? I shouldn't reply back? Validity of an idea or argument is highly subjective and perceptive. akadien conveyed his thoughts and I conveyed mine without being rude or derailing the discussion. I would think that's how the discussion is supposed to work.
  - yesimahuman 16y ago
    You are getting defensive. There is a bigger lesson here (one that I have had to and still have to practice every day!) Anyways, best of luck (and I really do mean it)!
    - petervandijck 16y ago
      I actually think the dude isn't defensive, he's responding quite reasonably to someone being negative.
      - yesimahuman 16y ago
        Very negative, sure, but it isn't an argument, and there are no counter-arguments to akadien's advice. He doesn't have any of those things that many people believe to be the mark of a promising business. To akadien, those things are very important. To irahul they appear not to be. Who knows, he could be successful doing it differently, no one here would be able to say one way or the other.
prawn 16y ago
You didn't claim anything in particular, but you did ask everyone what they thought, and this person did tell you what they thought (though, not exactly sugar-coated). :)
- irahul 16y ago
  Yes. And I agreed with some and disagreed with rest. Nothing personal. I appreciate his taking time to read and review the post. And yours too:-). This isn't false modesty. Sitting in a closed room and trying to build something which I suppose people will use takes me nowhere. Any sort of negative/positive feedback is why I am posting it on HN.
Concours 16y ago
I can't stop suggesting it again: You need a Market analysis , and here again, you NEED a market analysis. Creating a startup is not as easy as you may think (maybe I'm wrong here, but reading your blog post exactly sounds like you are dreaming) and think doing all the code/infrastructures and having a domain is the bigger deal, well, that's the easiest part. So here some sadditional suggestions: >You don't need a business plan , but you need to know how you will make money. >You NEED a market analysis : you don't even need to spend money for this. Just do yourself a favor, make some research and set a clear target audience. >you NEED a real IDEA , not an idea that will change every week, you can change how you plan to make money, but your idea can't keep changing every week, to see what will click, nothing will click in some weeks, you may need a lot of luck for that. >I don't see the value as well, of course YOU see the value, the only problem: YOU will not buy your product . Ask yourself, why will peoples want to use your product and not shopify, or whatever other service? Those other services do ONE thing, they validate your market, but they don't tell you if you have a chance to gain part of that market , wich part of it, and how------>the Market research does. >Indeed reads like wishful thinking and dreams of grandeur >All you have have is an Idea and a domain name: you should claim otherwise, you should defend your idea, you should tell uss why it's more than an idea, ever heard the saying: ideas are worth nothing!? ---> you should have an Idea on how you will make money, you should know your market. Now on something else, if this is your first venture, keep in mind many peoples on HN have been there, and they give advices to help you, at least most of us. Your SEO approach gives me some very big concern, so I suggest you head over to gabriel weinberg blog: http://www.gabrielweinberg.com/blog/ http://www.gabrielweinberg.com/blog/ and watch some of the interviews, or look for patio11 entries and read them, you may need that knowledge to gain traction.
- Concours 16y ago
  Could someone explain the downvoting?
- irahul 16y ago
  >> You don't need a business plan , but you need to know how you will make money. Agreed. >> >You NEED a market analysis : you don't even need to spend money for this. Just do yourself a favor, make some research and set a clear target audience. I have done some research but I don't have concrete numbers. See my other post about general lack of exposure and trust in buying/selling online in Asian subcontinent. > >you NEED a real IDEA , not an idea that will change every week, you can change how you plan to make money, but your idea can't keep changing every week, to see what will click, nothing will click in some weeks, you may need a lot of luck for that. I should have worded myself better. My base idea is the same. The differentiators might change(I think will change) with time. How I plan to make money is more or less going to be simply charging users to create online stores for me. At least, that's how I see it as of now. > Ask yourself, why will peoples want to use your product and not shopify, or whatever other service? I have some differentiators planned. And I am willing to compete on price for the same level of service. Creating the same level of service is easier said than done, but that's what I am attempting. > you should defend your idea, you should tell uss why it's more than an idea, ever heard the saying: ideas are worth nothing!? Circular reasoning? Ideas are worth nothing and I should defend my idea? I belong to the "ideas mean nothing" camp. And yes, right now it's just an idea. It would evolve to more than an idea when I have built it. > keep in mind many peoples on HN have been there, and they give advices to help you, at least most of us. > Your SEO approach gives me some very big concern, so I suggest you head over to gabriel weinberg blog: http://www.gabrielweinberg.com/blog/ http://www.gabrielweinberg.com/blog/ and watch some of the interviews, I lost you here. The only thing I mentioned about SEO was it's easier to optimize it when there aren't many hits already coming for it. Take for example Google's Go or the io language. It's extremely hard to optimize searches for queries related to them. EDIT: I think I misunderstood you here. Your point probably was to optimize it for related terms. Like if someone searches for "online store", shopyist.com should feature among the top results. I have some plans for it. I am quite comfortable working on it myself. I would rope in SEO guy if my approach proves to be futile. I have read gabriel's blog. I am checking patio11 entries. Thanks for pointing. I realize that. Why else would I post on HN? I am prepared for the negative criticism coming my way. I would pay attention to some and ignore the rest. If all I wanted was to do what someone else told me, I would have kept my job:-)
tansey 16y ago
> On a more serious note, I am not selling out or going to ask for capital ever. You are thinking a TON of steps ahead. You have nothing. Ideas are cheap. > I didn't feel the need to do research to prove that people are interested in selling things online and e-commerce is hard and if you are a merchant That is NOT what it means to do market research. There are always competitors in 99.9% of startup businesses. And the 0.1% that actually are truly unique don't just magically stake their claim and stay that way forever-- imitators and competitors emerge. The most basic market research you need to do is to identify the size of the market you're attacking. Put a real number on that somehow. It may be guesswork, but do some serious digging. Then you want to figure out how much your competitors are making: estimate their costs, their profit margins, etc. Based on where your competitors fit in, you may decide that you can't compete on price and that changes your whole approach. If you have an idea to open a 24/7 grocery store in a town that has a Wal-Mart, you're probably not going to be able to beat a 2% profit margin coupled with specially negotiated prices. You may however be able to cater to a niche audience like college students by offering additional services, like making hot sandwiches (drunk kids love chicken parms at 3am). These are the kind of decisions that affect the entire direction of the company. > If they aren't selling it online already, it's only because the services aren't up to the mark, and that would be a good thing for me. No, actually there are myriad reasons why someone would not be selling online right now. Maybe they haven't ever heard of Shopify? Or maybe they don't trust Shopify to handle their setup? These are marketing challenges, not necessarily technical ones. Just being a great, determined coder does not guarantee you will be successful. Also: You mentioned you're quitting your job in 2 months to do this full time. Why? Do you have a ton of cash that you can do that? When do you expect to break even? How long can you survive on no salary? What are your expenses? Don't let me (or anyone else here) discourage you. Just have a real plan and put some real effort into the business side of things or make a disclaimer that tells us you're rich and aren't in it for the money. :)
- irahul 16y ago
  That was thorough. Thanks for your time. > You are thinking a TON of steps ahead. You have nothing. Ideas are cheap. Agreed. > The most basic market research you need to do is to identify the size of the market you're attacking. Put a real number on that somehow. It may be guesswork, but do some serious digging. I will try. For now, I don't see much traction in Asian sub-continent in selling or buying things online. I will try to do some research and convert it to real numbers. I have been researching people's horror stories about selling/buying things online. The primary reason generally boils down to late payments from the payment gateways. I am considering acting as a payment gateway to have the clients out of the inconvenience loop. The other reason is people don't have much faith here in Asian sub-continent in buying goods online. That is changing and I hope to tap into it. > Based on where your competitors fit in, you may decide that you can't compete on price The current plan is to compete primarily on price. Of course, that implies that the services are at par with the competitor. > Then you want to figure out how much your competitors are making: estimate their costs, their profit margins, etc. I have done some cost analysis based on my server costs and how much I am going to charge. I am hosting on Google App Engine and I am calculating the server costs based on that. We are developing without salary so the dev costs are zero. I am planning to compete on price. > Maybe they haven't ever heard of Shopify? Or maybe they don't trust Shopify to handle their setup? Both of the reasons are true for the demographics I have digged into. > You mentioned you're quitting your job in 2 months to do this full time. Why? Technically, I already have resigned. But the legal notice period is 2 months. > Do you have a ton of cash that you can do that? When do you expect to break even? How long can you survive on no salary? What are your expenses? I am bootstrapping. For 2 months, I would be working nights to build it. After that, I would be looking for some freelance work to sustain me. I have a miniature services profile http://defiance.in http://defiance.in and I know a couple of people who can use my services. That's not a priority. The work division would be 70(product)-30(services). > Don't let me (or anyone else here) discourage you. Nah, it's good to see a varied response(mostly negative). Keeps me on track. EDIT Somehow the formatting got screwed. Correcting it.
akadien 16y ago
Good luck to you. I respectfully disagree with your approach but perhaps you will find the success you are looking for.
- irahul 16y ago
  Thank you. I believe there isn't a true path to build a successful product, to each it's own. The crux of a civil discussion is being able to agree to disagree. I am glad we have maintained the civility here and had a meaningful conversation.

by irahul 16y ago

yesimahuman 16y ago

Although akadien's response was a bit blunt, your response shows that you aren't willing to listen to criticism. Relax, and really try to open yourself to what other people have to say. This is something I've really been learning the last year or so running my company. You might not agree with everything everyone has to say (and you don't have to, it is your company, after all), but you do want to be successful, and you haven't been yet, so don't be so quick to get defensive when other people have feedback and criticism.

irahul 16y ago
> your response shows that you aren't willing to listen to criticism. I am. But as a critic, shouldn't you be willing to listen to counter-arguments as well? After all, a discussion isn't one sided. > don't be so quick to get defensive when other people have feedback and criticism. Ummm..So what's the take-away here? I shouldn't reply back? Validity of an idea or argument is highly subjective and perceptive. akadien conveyed his thoughts and I conveyed mine without being rude or derailing the discussion. I would think that's how the discussion is supposed to work.
- yesimahuman 16y ago
  You are getting defensive. There is a bigger lesson here (one that I have had to and still have to practice every day!) Anyways, best of luck (and I really do mean it)!
  - petervandijck 16y ago
    I actually think the dude isn't defensive, he's responding quite reasonably to someone being negative.
    - yesimahuman 16y ago
      Very negative, sure, but it isn't an argument, and there are no counter-arguments to akadien's advice. He doesn't have any of those things that many people believe to be the mark of a promising business. To akadien, those things are very important. To irahul they appear not to be. Who knows, he could be successful doing it differently, no one here would be able to say one way or the other.

prawn 16y ago

You didn't claim anything in particular, but you did ask everyone what they thought, and this person did tell you what they thought (though, not exactly sugar-coated). :)

irahul 16y ago
Yes. And I agreed with some and disagreed with rest. Nothing personal. I appreciate his taking time to read and review the post. And yours too:-). This isn't false modesty. Sitting in a closed room and trying to build something which I suppose people will use takes me nowhere. Any sort of negative/positive feedback is why I am posting it on HN.

Concours 16y ago

I can't stop suggesting it again: You need a Market analysis , and here again, you NEED a market analysis. Creating a startup is not as easy as you may think (maybe I'm wrong here, but reading your blog post exactly sounds like you are dreaming) and think doing all the code/infrastructures and having a domain is the bigger deal, well, that's the easiest part. So here some sadditional suggestions: >You don't need a business plan , but you need to know how you will make money. >You NEED a market analysis : you don't even need to spend money for this. Just do yourself a favor, make some research and set a clear target audience. >you NEED a real IDEA , not an idea that will change every week, you can change how you plan to make money, but your idea can't keep changing every week, to see what will click, nothing will click in some weeks, you may need a lot of luck for that. >I don't see the value as well, of course YOU see the value, the only problem: YOU will not buy your product . Ask yourself, why will peoples want to use your product and not shopify, or whatever other service? Those other services do ONE thing, they validate your market, but they don't tell you if you have a chance to gain part of that market , wich part of it, and how------>the Market research does. >Indeed reads like wishful thinking and dreams of grandeur >All you have have is an Idea and a domain name: you should claim otherwise, you should defend your idea, you should tell uss why it's more than an idea, ever heard the saying: ideas are worth nothing!? ---> you should have an Idea on how you will make money, you should know your market. Now on something else, if this is your first venture, keep in mind many peoples on HN have been there, and they give advices to help you, at least most of us. Your SEO approach gives me some very big concern, so I suggest you head over to gabriel weinberg blog: http://www.gabrielweinberg.com/blog/ http://www.gabrielweinberg.com/blog/ and watch some of the interviews, or look for patio11 entries and read them, you may need that knowledge to gain traction.

Concours 16y ago
Could someone explain the downvoting?
irahul 16y ago
>> You don't need a business plan , but you need to know how you will make money. Agreed. >> >You NEED a market analysis : you don't even need to spend money for this. Just do yourself a favor, make some research and set a clear target audience. I have done some research but I don't have concrete numbers. See my other post about general lack of exposure and trust in buying/selling online in Asian subcontinent. > >you NEED a real IDEA , not an idea that will change every week, you can change how you plan to make money, but your idea can't keep changing every week, to see what will click, nothing will click in some weeks, you may need a lot of luck for that. I should have worded myself better. My base idea is the same. The differentiators might change(I think will change) with time. How I plan to make money is more or less going to be simply charging users to create online stores for me. At least, that's how I see it as of now. > Ask yourself, why will peoples want to use your product and not shopify, or whatever other service? I have some differentiators planned. And I am willing to compete on price for the same level of service. Creating the same level of service is easier said than done, but that's what I am attempting. > you should defend your idea, you should tell uss why it's more than an idea, ever heard the saying: ideas are worth nothing!? Circular reasoning? Ideas are worth nothing and I should defend my idea? I belong to the "ideas mean nothing" camp. And yes, right now it's just an idea. It would evolve to more than an idea when I have built it. > keep in mind many peoples on HN have been there, and they give advices to help you, at least most of us. > Your SEO approach gives me some very big concern, so I suggest you head over to gabriel weinberg blog: http://www.gabrielweinberg.com/blog/ http://www.gabrielweinberg.com/blog/ and watch some of the interviews, I lost you here. The only thing I mentioned about SEO was it's easier to optimize it when there aren't many hits already coming for it. Take for example Google's Go or the io language. It's extremely hard to optimize searches for queries related to them. EDIT: I think I misunderstood you here. Your point probably was to optimize it for related terms. Like if someone searches for "online store", shopyist.com should feature among the top results. I have some plans for it. I am quite comfortable working on it myself. I would rope in SEO guy if my approach proves to be futile. I have read gabriel's blog. I am checking patio11 entries. Thanks for pointing. I realize that. Why else would I post on HN? I am prepared for the negative criticism coming my way. I would pay attention to some and ignore the rest. If all I wanted was to do what someone else told me, I would have kept my job:-)

tansey 16y ago

> On a more serious note, I am not selling out or going to ask for capital ever. You are thinking a TON of steps ahead. You have nothing. Ideas are cheap. > I didn't feel the need to do research to prove that people are interested in selling things online and e-commerce is hard and if you are a merchant That is NOT what it means to do market research. There are always competitors in 99.9% of startup businesses. And the 0.1% that actually are truly unique don't just magically stake their claim and stay that way forever-- imitators and competitors emerge. The most basic market research you need to do is to identify the size of the market you're attacking. Put a real number on that somehow. It may be guesswork, but do some serious digging. Then you want to figure out how much your competitors are making: estimate their costs, their profit margins, etc. Based on where your competitors fit in, you may decide that you can't compete on price and that changes your whole approach. If you have an idea to open a 24/7 grocery store in a town that has a Wal-Mart, you're probably not going to be able to beat a 2% profit margin coupled with specially negotiated prices. You may however be able to cater to a niche audience like college students by offering additional services, like making hot sandwiches (drunk kids love chicken parms at 3am). These are the kind of decisions that affect the entire direction of the company. > If they aren't selling it online already, it's only because the services aren't up to the mark, and that would be a good thing for me. No, actually there are myriad reasons why someone would not be selling online right now. Maybe they haven't ever heard of Shopify? Or maybe they don't trust Shopify to handle their setup? These are marketing challenges, not necessarily technical ones. Just being a great, determined coder does not guarantee you will be successful. Also: You mentioned you're quitting your job in 2 months to do this full time. Why? Do you have a ton of cash that you can do that? When do you expect to break even? How long can you survive on no salary? What are your expenses? Don't let me (or anyone else here) discourage you. Just have a real plan and put some real effort into the business side of things or make a disclaimer that tells us you're rich and aren't in it for the money. :)

irahul 16y ago
That was thorough. Thanks for your time. > You are thinking a TON of steps ahead. You have nothing. Ideas are cheap. Agreed. > The most basic market research you need to do is to identify the size of the market you're attacking. Put a real number on that somehow. It may be guesswork, but do some serious digging. I will try. For now, I don't see much traction in Asian sub-continent in selling or buying things online. I will try to do some research and convert it to real numbers. I have been researching people's horror stories about selling/buying things online. The primary reason generally boils down to late payments from the payment gateways. I am considering acting as a payment gateway to have the clients out of the inconvenience loop. The other reason is people don't have much faith here in Asian sub-continent in buying goods online. That is changing and I hope to tap into it. > Based on where your competitors fit in, you may decide that you can't compete on price The current plan is to compete primarily on price. Of course, that implies that the services are at par with the competitor. > Then you want to figure out how much your competitors are making: estimate their costs, their profit margins, etc. I have done some cost analysis based on my server costs and how much I am going to charge. I am hosting on Google App Engine and I am calculating the server costs based on that. We are developing without salary so the dev costs are zero. I am planning to compete on price. > Maybe they haven't ever heard of Shopify? Or maybe they don't trust Shopify to handle their setup? Both of the reasons are true for the demographics I have digged into. > You mentioned you're quitting your job in 2 months to do this full time. Why? Technically, I already have resigned. But the legal notice period is 2 months. > Do you have a ton of cash that you can do that? When do you expect to break even? How long can you survive on no salary? What are your expenses? I am bootstrapping. For 2 months, I would be working nights to build it. After that, I would be looking for some freelance work to sustain me. I have a miniature services profile http://defiance.in http://defiance.in and I know a couple of people who can use my services. That's not a priority. The work division would be 70(product)-30(services). > Don't let me (or anyone else here) discourage you. Nah, it's good to see a varied response(mostly negative). Keeps me on track. EDIT Somehow the formatting got screwed. Correcting it.

akadien 16y ago

Good luck to you. I respectfully disagree with your approach but perhaps you will find the success you are looking for.

irahul 16y ago
Thank you. I believe there isn't a true path to build a successful product, to each it's own. The crux of a civil discussion is being able to agree to disagree. I am glad we have maintained the civility here and had a meaningful conversation.