5 ms·

I always love quotes like this: "All jewellery had a magical meaning for ancient people. Bracelets and neck adornments were to protect people from evil spirits,

I always love quotes like this: "All jewellery had a magical meaning for ancient people. Bracelets and neck adornments were to protect people from evil spirits, for instance." And we know this how? Maybe it was just made to be pretty. A rich person giving their partner a gift etc. No one could possibly be able to make any further inferences from a species of human we know almost nothing about.

wavefunction 9y ago
I think if you reference the Dungeon Master's Guide tables regarding loot, you'll notice a preponderance of protective magic when it comes to magical necklaces. +1s and +2s to general saves, resistance to elemental damage types, that sort of thing. Which is probably what they're going off of.
- drewmate 9y ago
  This is true, however it is generally accepted that proto-humans had much higher constitutions as well as greater general resistance to fire, water, etc... due to their lack of advanced structural dwellings and plate armor. If this is the case, the +1s and +2s would be less necessary and bracelets could, in fact, have been merely decorative. That said, if archaeologists take the time to attune to the bracelets, I'm sure they will discover some magical properties.
TeMPOraL 9y ago
My mother studied archaeology and she told me once what she heard during her classes - that "religious significance" is the default label that is put on things they found when they have no clue what those things were for.
- willvarfar 9y ago
  Yeap, in Time Team (warning: you can lose days binging on those videos on youtube!) they use the term "ritual". Everything is ritualistic, every pathway is for "processions" and so on, until they find evidence of something that makes said object or pathway or location mundane :)
- Mithaldu 9y ago
  I may be jumping to conclusions here, but this feels to me like a consequence of the american thing of "never admit when you don't know something".
  - TeMPOraL 9y ago
    I don't think this is just an American thing. Also, my mother studied in Poland.
    - Mithaldu 9y ago
      Even if she's not american, it could be an attribute of the line of study. Mathematics weren't started in Germany, but many text books, even in the USA are strongly influenced by german aspects. Also, if it's not that, where does that aspect come from then? How long have archeologists been doing this?
      - criddell 9y ago
        > How long have archeologists been doing this? Doing what? Making assumptions and jumping to conclusions? That's a good question and I don't know the answer. How long have you been doing it?
        Mithaldu 9y ago
        > Doing what? Defaulting anything they should ordinary label as "purpose unknown" to "religious". > How long have you been doing it? Claiming that i am jumping to conclusions is ridiculous. I started the first post by saying i already thought my initial thought may have been doing that, and stated it as a feeling (subjective), and thus positioned it not as an objective fact but a hypothesis, inviting discussion. I was earnest, honest and clear. You're just being gracelessly sarcastic and dishonest.
      - TeMPOraL 9y ago
        I don't know, but I also don't know of anything that would suggest that this is a typically American bias or that archaeology as a field of study is that heavily influenced by American culture.
- NoGravitas 9y ago
  I went to grad school in archaeology, and I can tell you that this is absolutely the case. Part of the problem is that archaeologists are generally terrible at cultural anthropology (compared to other anthropologists, not compared to the general population). The other part is that in most societies, there is not a firm dividing line between the religious/magical and the mundane.
  - pavement 9y ago
    Which is curious, because you'd think there'd be conceptual understanding with regard to "ornamentation," "amusement/diversion/boredom" and "craftsmanship/showmanship." The amount of time spent fixating on ornamentation should be obvious, just by spending time in a flea market, looking at the trays upon trays of common jewelry people toss tens of dollars at. Amusement, and diversions should be obvious from watching people engage in repetitive tasks like crossword puzzles, card games and knitting. Fidget spinners fit into this category. Boondoggles have a utility in letting the mind wander. Polishing stone by hand was probably rewarding, when there were no consequences tied to failure. Craftsmanship as a sign of status is probably the closest secular concept to the token "religion or magical thinking" and goes hand in hand with fashion and ornamentation. There are extremely slim reasons for the geek cred associated with odd piercings or those decorative spin tops based on the one from the movie Inception. Being able to show that you know about something, and or how to do something, displays skill sets without having to brag openly. The subculture of skin piercing and body modification displays a capacity for tolerating pain, awareness of anatomy, and a taming of wound infection in edge cases. Spin tops really represent membership within a nerd subculture that has money to burn, and fetishizes metallurgy trivia juxtaposed with movie trivia, but the craftsmanship of the pieces justifies their price, earning it's owner status, since there remains the authentic barrier to simply making a DIY inception top, contrasted against buying the collector's item. Rare sneaker subculture probably encapsulates all three of these ideas without being religious at all. But observing sneaker collectors in the wild leaves me with the impression that maybe it really is a religion after all. These are probably difficult concepts to communicate in academic papers that often must get translated into multiple languages, so the catch all religious, magical shrug will probably persist.
INTPenis 9y ago
Yes but look back only 60-70 years in Europe and a lot of jewelry had a double purpose. It was pretty but it was also for example St. Anthony, a cross or some other spiritual tribute.
- AndrewOMartin 9y ago
  ...or to Livestrong.
ivanhoe 9y ago
Usually these conclusions are derived from observations of the habits and rituals of primitive tribes, presumption being that life-style similarities would lead to them developing similar sets of beliefs and culture, too. Of course, it's just a theory, no one can be 100% sure about it.
mirimir 9y ago
Maybe more like savings. Trade goods.
journeeman 9y ago
I agree! Our (subconscious?) arrogance of our intellect always biases the way we look at our ancestors. If we could just be more humble, we would probably be seeing more of what's there.
nylonstrung 9y ago
It an expression of a more generalized need I've seen to disbelief that ancient humans could be capable of the rationality and logical thought we feel is proprietary to our time. Also why many people cannot understand how the pyramids could be built without alien intervention
odabaxok 9y ago
Your comment reminds me of: "Someday future archaeologists are going to dig up Disney World and think it was some bizarre mouse-worshiping kingdom." https://www.reddit.com/r/Showerthoughts/comments/3vd7aa/someday_future_archaeologists_are_going_to_dig_up/ https://www.reddit.com/r/Showerthoughts/comments/3vd7aa/some...
- mirimir 9y ago
  I used to wonder that about the plastic parts of True cigarettes.
kaffeemitsahne 9y ago
Reminds me of an article that was on HN a while ago, about how prehistoric people used to smear ochre on dead bodies using rocks, and then break these rocks to dispel the spirits of the dead (or something along those lines..), all this inferred from some broken rocks with traces of ochre on them.
badloginagain 9y ago
I'm late to the party, but I would assume that the amount of non-useful items owned by a person can be a heuristic for the amount of respect/power/influence that person would have. How that influence is manifested could well be through religious (shamanism) means, but it could also signify a great warrior, or the dominant member of a family/tribe/etc.
nthcolumn 9y ago
Not to mention they weren't 'people'.
wowtip 9y ago
Yes, very condescending, in the same way Neanderthals were seen as primitive cave men until hard evidence showed they were at least as advanced as modern humans in many ways. Also, this is a completely different species of human. A bit presumptuous interpreting there actions from homo sapiens mindset. For all we know they could have been Spock like atheists.

wavefunction 9y ago

I think if you reference the Dungeon Master's Guide tables regarding loot, you'll notice a preponderance of protective magic when it comes to magical necklaces. +1s and +2s to general saves, resistance to elemental damage types, that sort of thing. Which is probably what they're going off of.

drewmate 9y ago
This is true, however it is generally accepted that proto-humans had much higher constitutions as well as greater general resistance to fire, water, etc... due to their lack of advanced structural dwellings and plate armor. If this is the case, the +1s and +2s would be less necessary and bracelets could, in fact, have been merely decorative. That said, if archaeologists take the time to attune to the bracelets, I'm sure they will discover some magical properties.

TeMPOraL 9y ago

My mother studied archaeology and she told me once what she heard during her classes - that "religious significance" is the default label that is put on things they found when they have no clue what those things were for.

willvarfar 9y ago
Yeap, in Time Team (warning: you can lose days binging on those videos on youtube!) they use the term "ritual". Everything is ritualistic, every pathway is for "processions" and so on, until they find evidence of something that makes said object or pathway or location mundane :)
Mithaldu 9y ago
I may be jumping to conclusions here, but this feels to me like a consequence of the american thing of "never admit when you don't know something".
- TeMPOraL 9y ago
  I don't think this is just an American thing. Also, my mother studied in Poland.
  - Mithaldu 9y ago
    Even if she's not american, it could be an attribute of the line of study. Mathematics weren't started in Germany, but many text books, even in the USA are strongly influenced by german aspects. Also, if it's not that, where does that aspect come from then? How long have archeologists been doing this?
    - criddell 9y ago
      > How long have archeologists been doing this? Doing what? Making assumptions and jumping to conclusions? That's a good question and I don't know the answer. How long have you been doing it?
      - Mithaldu 9y ago
        > Doing what? Defaulting anything they should ordinary label as "purpose unknown" to "religious". > How long have you been doing it? Claiming that i am jumping to conclusions is ridiculous. I started the first post by saying i already thought my initial thought may have been doing that, and stated it as a feeling (subjective), and thus positioned it not as an objective fact but a hypothesis, inviting discussion. I was earnest, honest and clear. You're just being gracelessly sarcastic and dishonest.
    - TeMPOraL 9y ago
      I don't know, but I also don't know of anything that would suggest that this is a typically American bias or that archaeology as a field of study is that heavily influenced by American culture.
NoGravitas 9y ago
I went to grad school in archaeology, and I can tell you that this is absolutely the case. Part of the problem is that archaeologists are generally terrible at cultural anthropology (compared to other anthropologists, not compared to the general population). The other part is that in most societies, there is not a firm dividing line between the religious/magical and the mundane.
- pavement 9y ago
  Which is curious, because you'd think there'd be conceptual understanding with regard to "ornamentation," "amusement/diversion/boredom" and "craftsmanship/showmanship." The amount of time spent fixating on ornamentation should be obvious, just by spending time in a flea market, looking at the trays upon trays of common jewelry people toss tens of dollars at. Amusement, and diversions should be obvious from watching people engage in repetitive tasks like crossword puzzles, card games and knitting. Fidget spinners fit into this category. Boondoggles have a utility in letting the mind wander. Polishing stone by hand was probably rewarding, when there were no consequences tied to failure. Craftsmanship as a sign of status is probably the closest secular concept to the token "religion or magical thinking" and goes hand in hand with fashion and ornamentation. There are extremely slim reasons for the geek cred associated with odd piercings or those decorative spin tops based on the one from the movie Inception. Being able to show that you know about something, and or how to do something, displays skill sets without having to brag openly. The subculture of skin piercing and body modification displays a capacity for tolerating pain, awareness of anatomy, and a taming of wound infection in edge cases. Spin tops really represent membership within a nerd subculture that has money to burn, and fetishizes metallurgy trivia juxtaposed with movie trivia, but the craftsmanship of the pieces justifies their price, earning it's owner status, since there remains the authentic barrier to simply making a DIY inception top, contrasted against buying the collector's item. Rare sneaker subculture probably encapsulates all three of these ideas without being religious at all. But observing sneaker collectors in the wild leaves me with the impression that maybe it really is a religion after all. These are probably difficult concepts to communicate in academic papers that often must get translated into multiple languages, so the catch all religious, magical shrug will probably persist.

INTPenis 9y ago

Yes but look back only 60-70 years in Europe and a lot of jewelry had a double purpose. It was pretty but it was also for example St. Anthony, a cross or some other spiritual tribute.

AndrewOMartin 9y ago
...or to Livestrong.

ivanhoe 9y ago

Usually these conclusions are derived from observations of the habits and rituals of primitive tribes, presumption being that life-style similarities would lead to them developing similar sets of beliefs and culture, too. Of course, it's just a theory, no one can be 100% sure about it.

mirimir 9y ago

Maybe more like savings. Trade goods.

journeeman 9y ago

I agree! Our (subconscious?) arrogance of our intellect always biases the way we look at our ancestors. If we could just be more humble, we would probably be seeing more of what's there.

nylonstrung 9y ago

It an expression of a more generalized need I've seen to disbelief that ancient humans could be capable of the rationality and logical thought we feel is proprietary to our time. Also why many people cannot understand how the pyramids could be built without alien intervention

odabaxok 9y ago

Your comment reminds me of: "Someday future archaeologists are going to dig up Disney World and think it was some bizarre mouse-worshiping kingdom." https://www.reddit.com/r/Showerthoughts/comments/3vd7aa/someday_future_archaeologists_are_going_to_dig_up/ https://www.reddit.com/r/Showerthoughts/comments/3vd7aa/some...

mirimir 9y ago
I used to wonder that about the plastic parts of True cigarettes.

kaffeemitsahne 9y ago

Reminds me of an article that was on HN a while ago, about how prehistoric people used to smear ochre on dead bodies using rocks, and then break these rocks to dispel the spirits of the dead (or something along those lines..), all this inferred from some broken rocks with traces of ochre on them.

badloginagain 9y ago

I'm late to the party, but I would assume that the amount of non-useful items owned by a person can be a heuristic for the amount of respect/power/influence that person would have. How that influence is manifested could well be through religious (shamanism) means, but it could also signify a great warrior, or the dominant member of a family/tribe/etc.

nthcolumn 9y ago

Not to mention they weren't 'people'.

wowtip 9y ago

Yes, very condescending, in the same way Neanderthals were seen as primitive cave men until hard evidence showed they were at least as advanced as modern humans in many ways. Also, this is a completely different species of human. A bit presumptuous interpreting there actions from homo sapiens mindset. For all we know they could have been Spock like atheists.