3 ms·

80k is not a lot of money if you are talking about any of the major metro areas in the US. In fact is it definitely entry level as far as engineering salaries

80k is not a lot of money if you are talking about any of the major metro areas in the US. In fact is it definitely entry level as far as engineering salaries go. if you are in SF or NY it's laughably low. You haven't said the exact details of the job you are advertising but you probably aren't paying enough that is why you are getting bad candidates.

paulddraper 9y ago
Median household income in the US is $52k. In San Fran, $78k.
- pmorici 9y ago
  Sure, but the op isn't trying to hire a janitor. He is looking for someone with technical experience and social acumen. Those people aren't available for median salaries.
  - throwaway31234 9y ago
    Median != janitor
exclusiv 9y ago
In SF and NYC that 80k is laughably low because it's expensive to live but also because companies there are abusing young engineers and getting 60+ hrs per week in many cases. I have a senior engineer I pay 130k for 40 hours of work. He tries to bring me salaries of some of his friends that get paid more and I ask him how many hours do they do? 130k@40 hrs is 162k@50 hrs if you value your time. I always negotiate based on desired work load. Tech jobs should really be more clear about hourly expectations for the given salary.
- pmorici 9y ago
  Hey if that argument works for you more power to you. I'm not talking about jobs with inflated work hour expectations though. You just happen to have lucked out and found an engineer who both has the skills you want and hasn't figured out the salary game yet. I'm guessing you would react differently if they brought you an actual offer from another company instead of anecdotes about what their friends make.
  - exclusiv 9y ago
    No - he has figured out the salary game. He values his time and doesn't want to do crazy hours but when he hears or reads salary data it's never transparent. I've had him for about 4 years and he has 9 yrs experience as a full-stack dev. I understand what you're saying and I agree if it's not entry level and in a major market, but you don't have enough data to suggest that the parent didn't find anyone they want because of a low salary. All I'm saying is that if you are offering 80k and only expect 40 hrs, he should probably be clear about that because that could help him attract better candidates who value their time. Otherwise, I agree it could look low depending on where he is.
  - galdosdi 9y ago
    Eh, it depends. Odds are you're right IMHO, but it's quite possible exclusiv is honest and really does run a shop that has an unusually good work-life balance. OTOH my experience is that pay and hours expectations are orthogonal in the software/IT industry! Like, meaning you can find jobs that pay low and expect low hours, jobs that pay low and expect high hours, jobs that pay high and expect low hours, and jobs that pay high and expect high hours, and all points in between. If only it were easy to tell at the interview stage, you know which one I'd try to get, but it's hard to really know what a company is like till you're there -- and different teams/depts at the same company can have wildly different situations.
    - exclusiv 9y ago
      I wouldn't have high retention if I didn't have the approach I outlined. The market is frothy. I ask all candidates what they prefer regarding hours so we're all on the same page from the get go. If you want to put in 60 and get compensated for it then I'll negotiate based on that. Most employees stick to 40 and Fridays are super light. Most work from home at least 2 days per week too. I'm exploring doing 32 hrs for new roles. When I interviewed personally I always asked what the hours expectation was because I knew the game as I had been abused before. So I'd try to ask employees at a prospective company to get the real scoop if possible. It's dishonest to demand crazy hours and not compensate. It also leads to high attrition and I'm not in business to spend time replacing people and risking losing clients over it.
cheald 9y ago
$80k is a substantial amount of money in, say, Houston (4th most populous city in the US) or Phoenix (6th most populous city in the US). SF's COL is 51% higher than Houston (ie, $80k in Houston ~ $121k in SF), and 73% higher than Phoenix ($80k in Phoenix ~ $138k in SF). Factor in additional earnings potential for multi-earner households and $80k for a single earner can be quite a lot in the right "major metro area".
- bdavisx 9y ago
  It depends on the lens you're looking thru: $80k isn't substantial compared to other Software Engineer salaries. It might be substantial compared to other job classes.

paulddraper 9y ago

Median household income in the US is $52k. In San Fran, $78k.

pmorici 9y ago
Sure, but the op isn't trying to hire a janitor. He is looking for someone with technical experience and social acumen. Those people aren't available for median salaries.
- throwaway31234 9y ago
  Median != janitor

exclusiv 9y ago

In SF and NYC that 80k is laughably low because it's expensive to live but also because companies there are abusing young engineers and getting 60+ hrs per week in many cases. I have a senior engineer I pay 130k for 40 hours of work. He tries to bring me salaries of some of his friends that get paid more and I ask him how many hours do they do? 130k@40 hrs is 162k@50 hrs if you value your time. I always negotiate based on desired work load. Tech jobs should really be more clear about hourly expectations for the given salary.

pmorici 9y ago
Hey if that argument works for you more power to you. I'm not talking about jobs with inflated work hour expectations though. You just happen to have lucked out and found an engineer who both has the skills you want and hasn't figured out the salary game yet. I'm guessing you would react differently if they brought you an actual offer from another company instead of anecdotes about what their friends make.
- exclusiv 9y ago
  No - he has figured out the salary game. He values his time and doesn't want to do crazy hours but when he hears or reads salary data it's never transparent. I've had him for about 4 years and he has 9 yrs experience as a full-stack dev. I understand what you're saying and I agree if it's not entry level and in a major market, but you don't have enough data to suggest that the parent didn't find anyone they want because of a low salary. All I'm saying is that if you are offering 80k and only expect 40 hrs, he should probably be clear about that because that could help him attract better candidates who value their time. Otherwise, I agree it could look low depending on where he is.
- galdosdi 9y ago
  Eh, it depends. Odds are you're right IMHO, but it's quite possible exclusiv is honest and really does run a shop that has an unusually good work-life balance. OTOH my experience is that pay and hours expectations are orthogonal in the software/IT industry! Like, meaning you can find jobs that pay low and expect low hours, jobs that pay low and expect high hours, jobs that pay high and expect low hours, and jobs that pay high and expect high hours, and all points in between. If only it were easy to tell at the interview stage, you know which one I'd try to get, but it's hard to really know what a company is like till you're there -- and different teams/depts at the same company can have wildly different situations.
  - exclusiv 9y ago
    I wouldn't have high retention if I didn't have the approach I outlined. The market is frothy. I ask all candidates what they prefer regarding hours so we're all on the same page from the get go. If you want to put in 60 and get compensated for it then I'll negotiate based on that. Most employees stick to 40 and Fridays are super light. Most work from home at least 2 days per week too. I'm exploring doing 32 hrs for new roles. When I interviewed personally I always asked what the hours expectation was because I knew the game as I had been abused before. So I'd try to ask employees at a prospective company to get the real scoop if possible. It's dishonest to demand crazy hours and not compensate. It also leads to high attrition and I'm not in business to spend time replacing people and risking losing clients over it.

cheald 9y ago

$80k is a substantial amount of money in, say, Houston (4th most populous city in the US) or Phoenix (6th most populous city in the US). SF's COL is 51% higher than Houston (ie, $80k in Houston ~ $121k in SF), and 73% higher than Phoenix ($80k in Phoenix ~ $138k in SF). Factor in additional earnings potential for multi-earner households and $80k for a single earner can be quite a lot in the right "major metro area".

bdavisx 9y ago
It depends on the lens you're looking thru: $80k isn't substantial compared to other Software Engineer salaries. It might be substantial compared to other job classes.