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Report: Trump Gave Classified Information to Russians During White House Visit

67 points by alexkavon 9y ago

siegel 9y ago
At this point, I hope for his sake that the Russians are blackmailing or paying him. Because if he is sostupid to have done something like this at this point without some huge personal incentive, I almost have to feel bad for him. Almost...
- Analemma_ 9y ago
  Why feel bad for him? Nobody cares-- or more specifically, nobody who matters (the Republican Congress, or his voting base) cares-- they'll keep supporting him no matter what, and he knows it.
  - hendersoon 9y ago
    At this point, I'm not sure what it would take for the GOP to break ranks with Trump before they pass that tax bill. I don't believe there's /anything/ he could do so terrible that they would walk away from him.
    - ThrowawayR2 9y ago
      Not necessarily. I think they'd be perfectly happy if Trump stepped down and Pence became president. He would be much more effective at pushing through the GOP agenda.
      - siegel 9y ago
        My concern is that when the RNC was hacked, then Russians kept the material to blackmail the Republicans and so the Republicans will never act.
  - siegel 9y ago
    I was just kidding. No, I don't feel bad for him at all.
c3534l 9y ago
Isn't the president the one who has ultimate control over what's classified and what's not? I'm not surprised that the president would discuss classified operations with foreign dignitaries relevant to US interests.
- threeseed 9y ago
  Yes the President decides on classification. The issue here is that the intelligence came from a third party who never authorised the US to share it with anyone else especially not the Russians. Why is Russia an issue here ? Because they are there not just to fight ISIS but also to support the Syrian government who the US and most of the world absolutely do not support. And so Trump just helped Russia prop up the Syrians.
- shin_lao 9y ago
  This was information coming from an ally who didn't give authorization to transmit that information to Russians.
- munin 9y ago
  The system of designating information as confidential, secret, top secret and so on is indeed established by an executive order (EO 12356) however, one should actually read 12356 because it isn't as simple as "has ultimate control." Even within the EO framework, some co-ordination with the NSC is required. Additionally, the law (Espionage Act etc) doesn't speak to classification and names, very broadly: "Whoever, being entrusted with or having lawful possession or control of any document, writing, code book, signal book, sketch, photograph, photographic negative, blueprint, plan, map, model, instrument, appliance, note, or information, relating to the national defense, (1) through gross negligence permits the same to be removed from its proper place of custody or delivered to anyone in violation of his trust, or to be lost, stolen, abstracted, or destroyed, or (2) having knowledge that the same has been illegally removed from its proper place of custody or delivered to anyone in violation of its trust, or lost, or stolen, abstracted, or destroyed, and fails to make prompt report of such loss, theft, abstraction, or destruction to his superior officer" edit: I quoted the wrong statute.
  - 9y ago
hendersoon 9y ago
My personal feeling is that Trump himself didn't collude with foreign adversaries, although several of his disreputable campaign team of ne'er do wells certainly did. I don't believe he deliberately discussed classified intel with the Russians, either. He isn't treasonous-- he's incompetent. Hanlon's Razor puts it well. "Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity."
- moomin 9y ago
  Any sufficiently advanced incompetence is indistinguishable from malice.
  - mattm 9y ago
    At the presidential level (of any organization) it should be inexcusable no matter what the reason.
ryanx435 9y ago
whether he did or did not do what they are accusing him of, the fact that this is a 3rd hand article (NPR quoting a Washington Post article quoting their sources) whose source is so ambiguous that it has no meaning ("current and former U.S. officials" is broad enough to include retired postmen and your local tax collector) makes me worry for the future of our democracy.
- hendersoon 9y ago
  The story was independently confirmed by The New York Times and Buzzfeed, each citing two anonymous sources. Moreover, the national security advisor's rather curt statement addressing the matter did not actually deny what the Post reported-- read it carefully.
  - ryanx435 9y ago
    more anonymous sources, and not denying is not the same as confirming.
    - hendersoon 9y ago
      Deep Throat was an anonymous source. Anonymous sources are fine. You don't think he would deny it, if it didn't happen? C'mon.
      - ryanx435 9y ago
        no, i don't think he would deny it and i don't think he would confirm it, either. have you heard of the glomar response? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glomar_response https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glomar_response or lying by ommision? or being deliberately ambiguous? there are many reason why he wouldn't deny it if it didn't happen. I can't read his mind, and neither can you. assuming his intentions one way or the other is a dangerous misstep. as for anonymous sources, their credibility is directly tied to the credibility of the source that reports their stories. what if they Washington Post is making stuff up to sell papers? not saying they are, but they could be.
hendersoon 9y ago
Why was this story buried and hidden? Are Russian trolls running rampant on YC? If anyone is still around to see this, please consider clicking "vouch" at the top of the page. Edit: This story was briefly unhidden, and now hidden again. There must be an army of trolls trying to bury it. Which is completely bizarre, as it's on the front page of every news site in the entire world.
- jsnell 9y ago
  Something that's on the front page of every news site in the world is exactly the kind of thing that doesn't need to be on HN.
  - hendersoon 9y ago
    Do you really think you will succeed in keeping a story this huge off the front page? As each one is buried, someone else will come along thinking "hey, this isn't here yet!" and start a new one.
  - throwaway8800 9y ago
    I'm not particularly fond of political discussion on HN, but this particularly political environment is so insane that it ought to be discussed in more and more places. And I am keen on hearing the perspective of HN readers in particular on what this President and government is doing. It's a unique perspective, particularly when the discourse occurs in a community setting, and it ought not to be suppressed in order to preserve romantic ideas about what HN is "supposed" to be. The guidelines have always stated that we should discuss whatever hackers find interesting. A subset (at least) find these topics interesting and worth discussion on occasion.
    - dang 9y ago
      The political intensity has been greater for at least 6 months now, but that's a matter of degree. There's nothing qualitatively new about this issue. The principle here has been in place since HN's founding (see https://news.ycombinator.com/newswelcome.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newswelcome.html) and after ten years of practice I think it's fair to say it's not 'romantic'. The site is what it is because we stick to that principle. It would have decayed years ago if we hadn't, and we shouldn't let that happen now.
existencebox 9y ago
I'm going to stick my neck out to voice against the constant flagging of political news as it comes out. To preempt the common "HN is not about politics", perhaps not, but politics of late have become such that they DO impact HN even if they aren't fundamentally technical. A comment on another thread said something along the lines of, "what do I care, HN is international?" I would argue precedents set here have international implications, and given YC's bearing as a US company, indiscretions of our leaders on this level seem like something we should certainly keep an ear to the ground to. If our community is silent on things that so set the tone for how our country is run and perceived for _everyone_, I question what leg we'll have to stand on when we speak up to things only relevant to us. Being tech-centric does not excuse a lack of participation in trying to make the world a better place.
- vthallam 9y ago
  I understand your sentiment and yes, the posts like this should be allowed for people to discuss.But more often than not, this whole thread will get polarised with supporters and critics arguing with little material details to support their arguments. HN allowed these posts some time back and guess looking at the comments convinced them to stop doing it.
  - dang 9y ago
    No, the principles haven't changed at all. For example I'm not sure a word of https://news.ycombinator.com/newswelcome.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newswelcome.html has been edited since 2009. What has changed is the intensity of the political climate.
- threeseed 9y ago
  Sorry but HN really isn't the best place to discuss it. There are plenty of interesting startup and IT news stories that don't make it to the front page because of political posts.
  - hendersoon 9y ago
    You need to expect that massive stories like this one make the front page. The community wants to discuss them. Even if you successfully bury this one, another will come shortly. It's inevitable and unavoidable.
talktojoseph 9y ago
Just more Democratic bullshit from a few of the Democratic Mouth Pieces if they would spend more time doing real work for US citizens the US would be great again
talktojoseph 9y ago
More lies and Democrats bullshit start doing more of nations work and less time spreading your bullshit..our government is just full of loosers and bullshiters from the Democratic Party ....please do some work for a change...and help make America Great Again...
justifier 9y ago
speaking on hypotheticals let's say that through investigation there is found to be conclusive evidence that there was treasonous collusion between the current administration and foreign entities everyone is talking about impeachment but would there also be another 'emergency', or expedited, general election? it would seem to me that if trump were to be removed then the entire cabinet and all of its subsequent decisions would need to be removed as well pence, gorsuch, any bills and executive orders these would in effect be policy and decisions made under treasonous intent and by an administration being led on by foreign entities so should be treated as such
- siegel 9y ago
  Sadly, that's not how it would work. Everything he's done would be legally valid. And the order of presidential succession would decide the next president.
  - justifier 9y ago
    if this is the case this would seem counter productive to 'insuring domestic tranquility' if i was looking to defraud a nation state that functioned in this way i would put in power an individual whose ethics would allow for any motion i willed to be enabled and whose demeanor would insure the individuals eventual ousting in this way the nation state would assume the problem had been addressed by the removal of the individual all the while my desires would still be in effect it is like intentionally failing to pay your contractors knowing full well that any lawsuit would be either impractical to pursue or any settlement would be a fraction of what was originally bid
    - mnm1 9y ago
      I'm sure that's what Putin was thinking.
6nf 9y ago
Are we still at war with Russia or something? I don't understand why Russia is being demonised in the media so much the last 6 months.
- gonmf 9y ago
  I agree. I see no issue with one country informing another that terrorists may be plotting an attack and how to prevent it. Today it feels like being told that every thing to come out of Trump is wrong and every hacker or unpopular opinion is Russian.
  - hendersoon 9y ago
    This was "codename" classified information, the highest level. When FDR died and Truman was sworn in, he was informed about the Manhattan experiment-- the vice-president was not looped in. That's how secret the information we're talking about is. Moreover, it's not about sharing info to stop terrorists, it's about burning an intelligence asset inside ISIS, and possibly getting him or her killed. And not even a US asset; one from one of our allies, reportedly Israel. This will make our allies less likely to share intel in the future and make us all less safe.

67 points by alexkavon 9y ago

At this point, I hope for his sake that the Russians are blackmailing or paying him. Because if he is sostupid to have done something like this at this point without some huge personal incentive, I almost have to feel bad for him. Almost...

Analemma_ 9y ago
Why feel bad for him? Nobody cares-- or more specifically, nobody who matters (the Republican Congress, or his voting base) cares-- they'll keep supporting him no matter what, and he knows it.
- hendersoon 9y ago
  At this point, I'm not sure what it would take for the GOP to break ranks with Trump before they pass that tax bill. I don't believe there's /anything/ he could do so terrible that they would walk away from him.
  - ThrowawayR2 9y ago
    Not necessarily. I think they'd be perfectly happy if Trump stepped down and Pence became president. He would be much more effective at pushing through the GOP agenda.
    - siegel 9y ago
      My concern is that when the RNC was hacked, then Russians kept the material to blackmail the Republicans and so the Republicans will never act.
- siegel 9y ago
  I was just kidding. No, I don't feel bad for him at all.

c3534l 9y ago

Isn't the president the one who has ultimate control over what's classified and what's not? I'm not surprised that the president would discuss classified operations with foreign dignitaries relevant to US interests.

threeseed 9y ago
Yes the President decides on classification. The issue here is that the intelligence came from a third party who never authorised the US to share it with anyone else especially not the Russians. Why is Russia an issue here ? Because they are there not just to fight ISIS but also to support the Syrian government who the US and most of the world absolutely do not support. And so Trump just helped Russia prop up the Syrians.
shin_lao 9y ago
This was information coming from an ally who didn't give authorization to transmit that information to Russians.
munin 9y ago
The system of designating information as confidential, secret, top secret and so on is indeed established by an executive order (EO 12356) however, one should actually read 12356 because it isn't as simple as "has ultimate control." Even within the EO framework, some co-ordination with the NSC is required. Additionally, the law (Espionage Act etc) doesn't speak to classification and names, very broadly: "Whoever, being entrusted with or having lawful possession or control of any document, writing, code book, signal book, sketch, photograph, photographic negative, blueprint, plan, map, model, instrument, appliance, note, or information, relating to the national defense, (1) through gross negligence permits the same to be removed from its proper place of custody or delivered to anyone in violation of his trust, or to be lost, stolen, abstracted, or destroyed, or (2) having knowledge that the same has been illegally removed from its proper place of custody or delivered to anyone in violation of its trust, or lost, or stolen, abstracted, or destroyed, and fails to make prompt report of such loss, theft, abstraction, or destruction to his superior officer" edit: I quoted the wrong statute.
- 9y ago

hendersoon 9y ago

My personal feeling is that Trump himself didn't collude with foreign adversaries, although several of his disreputable campaign team of ne'er do wells certainly did. I don't believe he deliberately discussed classified intel with the Russians, either. He isn't treasonous-- he's incompetent. Hanlon's Razor puts it well. "Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity."

moomin 9y ago
Any sufficiently advanced incompetence is indistinguishable from malice.
- mattm 9y ago
  At the presidential level (of any organization) it should be inexcusable no matter what the reason.

ryanx435 9y ago

whether he did or did not do what they are accusing him of, the fact that this is a 3rd hand article (NPR quoting a Washington Post article quoting their sources) whose source is so ambiguous that it has no meaning ("current and former U.S. officials" is broad enough to include retired postmen and your local tax collector) makes me worry for the future of our democracy.

hendersoon 9y ago
The story was independently confirmed by The New York Times and Buzzfeed, each citing two anonymous sources. Moreover, the national security advisor's rather curt statement addressing the matter did not actually deny what the Post reported-- read it carefully.
- ryanx435 9y ago
  more anonymous sources, and not denying is not the same as confirming.
  - hendersoon 9y ago
    Deep Throat was an anonymous source. Anonymous sources are fine. You don't think he would deny it, if it didn't happen? C'mon.
    - ryanx435 9y ago
      no, i don't think he would deny it and i don't think he would confirm it, either. have you heard of the glomar response? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glomar_response https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glomar_response or lying by ommision? or being deliberately ambiguous? there are many reason why he wouldn't deny it if it didn't happen. I can't read his mind, and neither can you. assuming his intentions one way or the other is a dangerous misstep. as for anonymous sources, their credibility is directly tied to the credibility of the source that reports their stories. what if they Washington Post is making stuff up to sell papers? not saying they are, but they could be.

hendersoon 9y ago

Why was this story buried and hidden? Are Russian trolls running rampant on YC? If anyone is still around to see this, please consider clicking "vouch" at the top of the page. Edit: This story was briefly unhidden, and now hidden again. There must be an army of trolls trying to bury it. Which is completely bizarre, as it's on the front page of every news site in the entire world.

jsnell 9y ago
Something that's on the front page of every news site in the world is exactly the kind of thing that doesn't need to be on HN.
- hendersoon 9y ago
  Do you really think you will succeed in keeping a story this huge off the front page? As each one is buried, someone else will come along thinking "hey, this isn't here yet!" and start a new one.
- throwaway8800 9y ago
  I'm not particularly fond of political discussion on HN, but this particularly political environment is so insane that it ought to be discussed in more and more places. And I am keen on hearing the perspective of HN readers in particular on what this President and government is doing. It's a unique perspective, particularly when the discourse occurs in a community setting, and it ought not to be suppressed in order to preserve romantic ideas about what HN is "supposed" to be. The guidelines have always stated that we should discuss whatever hackers find interesting. A subset (at least) find these topics interesting and worth discussion on occasion.
  - dang 9y ago
    The political intensity has been greater for at least 6 months now, but that's a matter of degree. There's nothing qualitatively new about this issue. The principle here has been in place since HN's founding (see https://news.ycombinator.com/newswelcome.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newswelcome.html) and after ten years of practice I think it's fair to say it's not 'romantic'. The site is what it is because we stick to that principle. It would have decayed years ago if we hadn't, and we shouldn't let that happen now.

existencebox 9y ago

I'm going to stick my neck out to voice against the constant flagging of political news as it comes out. To preempt the common "HN is not about politics", perhaps not, but politics of late have become such that they DO impact HN even if they aren't fundamentally technical. A comment on another thread said something along the lines of, "what do I care, HN is international?" I would argue precedents set here have international implications, and given YC's bearing as a US company, indiscretions of our leaders on this level seem like something we should certainly keep an ear to the ground to. If our community is silent on things that so set the tone for how our country is run and perceived for _everyone_, I question what leg we'll have to stand on when we speak up to things only relevant to us. Being tech-centric does not excuse a lack of participation in trying to make the world a better place.

vthallam 9y ago
I understand your sentiment and yes, the posts like this should be allowed for people to discuss.But more often than not, this whole thread will get polarised with supporters and critics arguing with little material details to support their arguments. HN allowed these posts some time back and guess looking at the comments convinced them to stop doing it.
- dang 9y ago
  No, the principles haven't changed at all. For example I'm not sure a word of https://news.ycombinator.com/newswelcome.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newswelcome.html has been edited since 2009. What has changed is the intensity of the political climate.
threeseed 9y ago
Sorry but HN really isn't the best place to discuss it. There are plenty of interesting startup and IT news stories that don't make it to the front page because of political posts.
- hendersoon 9y ago
  You need to expect that massive stories like this one make the front page. The community wants to discuss them. Even if you successfully bury this one, another will come shortly. It's inevitable and unavoidable.

talktojoseph 9y ago

Just more Democratic bullshit from a few of the Democratic Mouth Pieces if they would spend more time doing real work for US citizens the US would be great again

talktojoseph 9y ago

More lies and Democrats bullshit start doing more of nations work and less time spreading your bullshit..our government is just full of loosers and bullshiters from the Democratic Party ....please do some work for a change...and help make America Great Again...

justifier 9y ago

speaking on hypotheticals let's say that through investigation there is found to be conclusive evidence that there was treasonous collusion between the current administration and foreign entities everyone is talking about impeachment but would there also be another 'emergency', or expedited, general election? it would seem to me that if trump were to be removed then the entire cabinet and all of its subsequent decisions would need to be removed as well pence, gorsuch, any bills and executive orders these would in effect be policy and decisions made under treasonous intent and by an administration being led on by foreign entities so should be treated as such

siegel 9y ago
Sadly, that's not how it would work. Everything he's done would be legally valid. And the order of presidential succession would decide the next president.
- justifier 9y ago
  if this is the case this would seem counter productive to 'insuring domestic tranquility' if i was looking to defraud a nation state that functioned in this way i would put in power an individual whose ethics would allow for any motion i willed to be enabled and whose demeanor would insure the individuals eventual ousting in this way the nation state would assume the problem had been addressed by the removal of the individual all the while my desires would still be in effect it is like intentionally failing to pay your contractors knowing full well that any lawsuit would be either impractical to pursue or any settlement would be a fraction of what was originally bid
  - mnm1 9y ago
    I'm sure that's what Putin was thinking.

6nf 9y ago

Are we still at war with Russia or something? I don't understand why Russia is being demonised in the media so much the last 6 months.

gonmf 9y ago
I agree. I see no issue with one country informing another that terrorists may be plotting an attack and how to prevent it. Today it feels like being told that every thing to come out of Trump is wrong and every hacker or unpopular opinion is Russian.
- hendersoon 9y ago
  This was "codename" classified information, the highest level. When FDR died and Truman was sworn in, he was informed about the Manhattan experiment-- the vice-president was not looped in. That's how secret the information we're talking about is. Moreover, it's not about sharing info to stop terrorists, it's about burning an intelligence asset inside ISIS, and possibly getting him or her killed. And not even a US asset; one from one of our allies, reportedly Israel. This will make our allies less likely to share intel in the future and make us all less safe.