10 ms·

Dangerous Skyscrapers Channel Wind and Sun, Topple Pedestrians and Start Fires

207 points by matthberg 9y ago

niftich 9y ago
Las Vegas condo/hotel Vdara, one of the highrises in the City Center development, was designed by the same architect as the Walkie Talkie -- Rafael Viñoly -- and exhibits the same solar convergence phenomenon; affectionately called the 'Vdara Death Ray' [1][2][3]. In a 2013 interview with the Guardian [4], he claims there was not much he could do about the Vdara, as the customer specifically wanted an arc-shaped building; in fact the the City Center development has several sweeping arc forms, like in the neighboring Aria -- but the concavity of the Aria's highrises aren't oriented south to converge the midday sun [5], whereas the Vdara aims them right at the pool deck [2]. For both Vdara and the Walkie Talkie, he claims to have been aware of the phenomenon going into the design but lacked the ability to correctly calculate the impact. Further, if claims are true, for the Walkie Talkie he said: "(...) the original design of the building had featured horizontal sun louvres on its south-facing facade, but these are believed to have been removed during cost-cutting as the project developed." [4] [1] https://www.reviewjournal.com/news/vdara-visitor-death-ray-scorched-hair/ https://www.reviewjournal.com/news/vdara-visitor-death-ray-s... [2] http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1315978/Las-Vegas-hotel-death-ray-leaves-guests-severe-burns.html http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1315978/Las-Vegas-ho... [3] http://www.businessinsider.com/the-vdara-death-ray-hotel-is-still-burning-people-in-las-vegas-2016-6 http://www.businessinsider.com/the-vdara-death-ray-hotel-is-... [4] https://www.theguardian.com/artanddesign/2013/sep/06/walkie-talkie-architect-predicted-reflection-sun-rays https://www.theguardian.com/artanddesign/2013/sep/06/walkie-... [5] http://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=17/36.10834/-115.17640 http://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=17/36.10834/-115.17640
- kwhitefoot 9y ago
  > lacked the ability to correctly calculate the impact And didn't bother to get the ability either.
  - Declanomous 9y ago
    If you design a building that is literally a threat to public safety, and then you design a second building that poses the exact same threat, you should lose all professional licensure. If you do any work in that field again, you should be charged with criminal negligence or something similar.
    - ouid 9y ago
      Shouldn't you already be charged with criminal negligence for the second building?
    - Animats 9y ago
      "The developers have blamed the problem on "the current elevation of the sun in the sky," a position Viñoly seems inclined to share." Like that was a surprise.
      - Declanomous 9y ago
        I just googled him. He's super famous. So he probably has that Frank Lloyd Wright thing going for him, where his buildings have glaring flaws but they are let off the hook because their work is so acclaimed. On the topic of FLW, I've visited a number of his houses. One of my friends growing up lived in a Wright house. I've visited Wright's personal house, Taliesen. In my opinion, Wright is not really an architect. I consider Wright more of a sculptor or an artist. His designs are terribly impractical, and are not versatile in the least. Additionally, he didn't account for the limitations of the materials he was using to build his structures. So his buildings tend to require a lot of repairs, and many have structural problems, leaks, as well as general safety issues. Wright wasn't the least bit apologetic about any of these things, and it seems like Viñoly shares the same overwhelming egotism. On a somewhat hilarious note, when I went to visit Taliesin, there were several rooms which I thought were poorly designed, but had an element that I considered a saving grace. In literally every single instance, it was something his wife had added/altered after his death. So, point being, I think that when you allow an egotistical architect to design something without any sort of editorial limitation, you probably end up with a worse product overall.
- hrktb 9y ago
  And then London architects took care to reproduce this features religiously: http://uk.businessinsider.com/death-ray-skyscraper-is-wreaking-havoc-on-london-for-a-few-totally-insane-reasons-2015-7 http://uk.businessinsider.com/death-ray-skyscraper-is-wreaki...
  - Analemma_ 9y ago
    Actually that building was designed by Viñoly too. He seems to have a personal preference for building death rays.
    - peferron 9y ago
      He seems pretty chill about it: "When it was spotted on a second design iteration, we judged the temperature was going to be about 36 degrees (Celsius). But it's turned out to be more like 72 degrees. They are calling it the 'death ray', because if you go there you might die. It is phenomenal, this thing." [1] [1] https://www.theguardian.com/artanddesign/2013/sep/06/walkie-talkie-architect-predicted-reflection-sun-rays https://www.theguardian.com/artanddesign/2013/sep/06/walkie-...
      - euyyn 9y ago
        That's what happens when a city government doesn't protect what to private owners are externalities. The owners of the building couldn't care less, and the architect gets the benefit of free publicity.
    - yborg 9y ago
      From the original article: 'fryscrapers'. I laughed.
- Swizec 9y ago
  Naive question, but wouldn't using a hyperbolic arc instead of a parabolic arc completely solve the issue?
  - tajen 9y ago
    Or have windows that don't reflect the sun downwards.
    - kijin 9y ago
      Then you're shooting death rays in the sky, endangering aircraft like a thousand laser pointers.
      - firethief 9y ago
        Inverse square law. Any aircraft close enough to be affected are having a bad problem anyway.
        MertsA 9y ago
        Yeah but that's with respect to the focal point. The focal point could be a good ways up in the air.
- willyt 9y ago
  Ha Ha! Welcome to the world of Starchitects. For a building like the Walkie Talkie, Vinõly would have been personally involved only at the very beginning. The question of who is actually responsible for removing the mitigation measures from the 'Walkie Talkie' is likely to be very complicated, depending on the procurement route taken by the client. It is quite likely that a 'Design Build' contract was used for the Walkie Talkie, where the concept architect hands over the design to a construction firm who then employs a completely separate team of architects and engineers to do the detailed construction design. The building is documented in the 'employers requirements' by the concept architects and then this package of information is handed over the contractor to fill out the details. I don't know how Vinõly works, but its possible his firm hands over the employers requirements quite early in the process and the problem solved by the fins wasn't clearly communicated to the design build contractor who then removed them to save money once Vinõly was no longer involved. This would explain why he was so blasé about the known problem with the concave design. http://www.pannone.com/media-centre/articles/construction-articles/walkie-talkie-shedding-light-construction-procurement http://www.pannone.com/media-centre/articles/construction-ar...
  - emmelaich 9y ago
    > The question of who is actually responsible for removing the mitigation measures Same as the design phase. It is guaranteed that engineers would have foreseen and been able to calculate the heat intensity. They just didn't have enough influence or ownership of the problem.
    - poooogles 9y ago
      >Same as the design phase. It is guaranteed that engineers would have foreseen and been able to calculate the heat intensity. Not the case. For the walkie talkie it was evaluated and the design (including location and it's orientation) were passed by a consultancy for a bunch of environmental items. Seemingly that wasn't the case and they spent £13m retrofitting shutters. AFAIK the main contractor went after the consultancy for the money but I can't for the life of me find any references right now.
level 9y ago
Stephen avenue in Calgary has some structures that were built to prevent wind gusts between buildings[1]. The street has a lot of foot traffic and that area became windy after the two skyscrapers on either side were constructed. Not sure about the cost to the city, but they're interesting to look at and they seem to achieve their goal. [1] https://www.google.ca/maps/@51.0456499,-114.0704853,3a,75y,72.01h,104.94t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sFrzPaV8XiAi_NIMsxxL1qQ!2e0!7i13312!8i6656?hl=en https://www.google.ca/maps/@51.0456499,-114.0704853,3a,75y,7...
- niftich 9y ago
  Some more info on the trees: from Calgary Downtown Association [1], some excellent photographs from various sources [2][3][4], and from the structural engineer [5]. Sadly, the architects (Cohos Evamy, merged and renamed DIALOG) don't have a feature on their website or in an archive I could find. [1] http://www.calgarydowntown.com/saw/Stephen-avenue-info/stephen-avenue-galleria-trees.html http://www.calgarydowntown.com/saw/Stephen-avenue-info/steph... [2] https://christophermartinphotography.com/2010/10/22/the-trees-on-stephen-avenue https://christophermartinphotography.com/2010/10/22/the-tree... [3] http://calgary.skyrisecities.com/news/2016/10/steel-trees-stephen-avenue http://calgary.skyrisecities.com/news/2016/10/steel-trees-st... [4] http://www.tboake.com/steel/bankers_hall.html http://www.tboake.com/steel/bankers_hall.html [5] http://astint.on.ca/bankers-hall-galleria-trees-sculpture/ http://astint.on.ca/bankers-hall-galleria-trees-sculpture/
- Gravityloss 9y ago
  That's fascinating. I've always wished my city had things like these. Trees would be nice, but they grow slowly and just when they start being big enough to thrive, look good and be useful, some official decides they're dangerous or happen to be exactly on top of a new roadway. So I guess a cold dead mechanical tree is the best we could get.
  - pm90 9y ago
    I wonder if this may be because of the weather, but why can't you grow vines on the metal trees to make it "green"? Or some sort of wall hugging vegetation. I mean, sure its not the same as a tree, but at least it might look nicer.
BuildTheRobots 9y ago
Bridgewater Place in Leeds (UK) has had at least one death caused by the wind tunnel effect now and regularly has to have road closures around it when it gets gusty (though living in the UK, at least bad weather isn't often a problem /s) edit: should have read the article before commenting, would you believe this is one of the first examples. Apologies for what turns out to be an entirely unnecessary comment.
meddlepal 9y ago
My favorite one of these in the John Hancock Tower in Boston which had to have its entire facade replaced and was known as the Plywood Palace while the work was underway: http://www.bostonmagazine.com/news/article/2014/07/29/plywood-palace-photograph-1974/ http://www.bostonmagazine.com/news/article/2014/07/29/plywoo.... Even to this day the winds around the base of the JHT can be obscenely high. I used to walk past it often from Back Bay station to my apartment down Stuart St. and the block it occupies when it lightly rains or snows it feels like a Hurricane vs the blocks immediately before and after it.
Animats 9y ago
A popular 1960s mistake was the open-column lobby floor, where the entrance level is smaller than the building above it. The air hitting the building is forced through the open area of the entrance level. This worked out OK in Brasilia, where a breeze was welcome, but it was terrible in cold, windy locations. Embarrassingly, MIT's Green Building was built like that.
- ghaff 9y ago
  Designed in part by I.M. Pei of popping windows in the Hancock building fame. Apparently, a revolving door had to be installed because sometimes people were physically unable to open the door because of the wind tunnel effect (or they had to enter through other buildings and take a tunnel). [1] [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Green_Building_(MIT) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Green_Building_(MIT) ADDED: There was even an MIT Musical Theater Guild filkish number way back at the dawn of time :-) about not being able to get into the Green Building to the tune of Charlie on the MBTA.
- gumby 9y ago
  Allegedly (back when I was an undergraduate in the 1980s) the calder sculpture outside was designed to deflect the wind to stop this problem. A great story, though I never found out if it was true or not.
  - Animats 9y ago
    Wikipedia says no. It's too far from the building, and too small. The Grande Arche de la Défense just outside Paris has similar problems, and glass panels rise out of the ground during high winds to shield pedestrians.
- flyinghamster 9y ago
  Chicago has a few of those as well, though the Kluczynski and Dirksen Federal Buildings were designed by Ludwig Mies van der Rohe, and the Daley Center by Jacques Brownson.
wehadfun 9y ago
There is a building in Dallas called Museum Tower that has a reflective glare that effectively destroyed a popular piece at a near by museum.
- matthberg 9y ago
  This sounds fascinating, do you remember when this happened?
  - tkahnoski 9y ago
    2012 This article has some good details on the story and a lot of drama around the project at the beginning https://www.dmagazine.com/publications/d-magazine/2012/may/museum-tower-the-towering-inferno/ https://www.dmagazine.com/publications/d-magazine/2012/may/m... It still hasn't been resolved. https://www.dallasnews.com/arts/museums/2016/09/25/fights-fantasy-fixes-fbi-museum-tower-nasher-still-odds-glare-five-years https://www.dallasnews.com/arts/museums/2016/09/25/fights-fa...
    - emmelaich 9y ago
      > It still hasn't been resolved .. and now we know why. It's politically impossible. If anyone else owned the building it would be fixed or the owners sued. > "The Dallas Police & Fire Pension System, which had earlier made a small investment in the Museum Tower project, announced that it would jump in with both feet and finance the entire thing, all $200 million of it"
  - CapitalistCartr 9y ago
    According to Wikipedia, 2013. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Museum_Tower_(Dallas) https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Museum_Tower_(Dallas)
- emmelaich 9y ago
  Note that the artist declared it destroyed for aesthetic reasons. It wasn't burnt or melted as far as I can tell.
ouid 9y ago
Are there any times of day where the light coverges on a point in space above the street? Could a bird flying through this space catch fire?
ChuckMcM 9y ago
I always thought it would be interesting to set up a slightly convex mylar sheet at the base of the Vdara. Perhaps innocently as a 'shade' under the extra sun. The results of which would be an extended Schmidt-Cassegrain type mirror arrangement that would deliver somewhere around 10x the solar insolation into the unfortunate condo at the focal point of the sheet. It would be irresponsible to say the least, and have terrible optics, but it appeals to my darker side.
- deleted 9y ago
  [deleted]
imgabe 9y ago
I think it would be cool to use some of these things deliberately. If you can design the building to generate 80mph winds, why not put a turbine in their path? If the building is going to focus the sun into a "death ray", point it at a Stirling engine.
- hammock 9y ago
  This sort of exists already, quite common. Roof turbine vents: https://www.google.com/search?q=roof+turbine+vent&source=lnms&tbm=isch https://www.google.com/search?q=roof+turbine+vent&source=lnm...
  - iamdave 9y ago
    Aren't those specifically used for ventilation though? I think comment you're replying to was thinking turbines to generate power
    - hammock 9y ago
      Maybe... he wasn't specific. I was thinking bigger as that wind energy could be used for things other than electricity generation.
- iaskwhy 9y ago
  Something related, the Castle House in London[0]. Didn't confirm but I believe it didn't work in the end. [0] http://intelligenttravel.nationalgeographic.com/2007/09/14/elephant_castle_goes_green/ http://intelligenttravel.nationalgeographic.com/2007/09/14/e...
bionsuba 9y ago
> Non-reflective film has since been added, but not before the building earned a new nicknames like “Walkie-Scorchie” You can always count on the Brits for coming up with great names for things.
- 21 9y ago
  Now being built, the "can of ham": https://architizer-prod.imgix.net/media/1422058020643Can-of-Ham.jpg https://architizer-prod.imgix.net/media/1422058020643Can-of-... http://media.gizmodo.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2015/01/ContriversialBuildings-CanofHam.jpg http://media.gizmodo.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2015/01/Contri...
  - wahern 9y ago
    So are Brits good a coming up with nicknames, or are they simply more apt to build enormous buildings that look like common household items?
    - Symbiote 9y ago
      In order to get permission to build a large building in central London, it's necessary to have a distinctive, unique design. The city does not want to look like America. Hence, the Gherkin, Cheesegrater, Can of Ham, Walkie Talkie, Shard, Helter-skelter.
makr17 9y ago
Doesn't need to be a skyscraper. Similar focus problems with the Disney Hall in Los Angeles: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Walt_Disney_Concert_Hall#Reflection_problems https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Walt_Disney_Concert_Hall#Refle...
Shivetya 9y ago
The fun bit about this is that some may get the same effect at home from their windows. I know my SW facing windows will reflect little X shapes onto the back lawn and when you cross one they are noticeably hot. it is almost useful in winter So what I am saying is that while some sky scrapers/etc can cause issues its the design/surface of all window surfaces that cause issues. it just is a matter of scale
justavoice 9y ago
Sounds like a great way to collect wind/solar energy...
aaron695 9y ago
Come on. If you have to talk about the cliche skyscraper that cooks eggs everyone knows about, it's not really a story, it's more news, a one off (OK there was also one in Las Vegas) The wind thing is interesting perhaps. Is that an actual engineering issue?
egypturnash 9y ago
Another wonderful side effect of the vast concentration of capital! Who cares about the peons outside as long as the CEO gets to be in the tallest building?
frik 9y ago
The "Grande Arche" in Paris has some glass protection wall to minimize channel winds. Still a very windy place. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grande_Arche https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grande_Arche
RcouF1uZ4gsC 9y ago
Software engineering often gets criticized as being so error prone compared to "real" engineering. These buildings demonstrate, that when you combine marketing, egos, a desire for novelty, and ignorance of constraints you can get massive disasters, just like with software.
lloeki 9y ago
The plaza and cathedral of Strasbourg (which you can see at the very beginning of one of the Sherlock Holmes movies starring R. Downey Jr.) has been engineered to channel wind around the cathedral, instilling a devilish, chilling feel and making the cathedral stand out as a safe haven.
owenversteeg 9y ago
I live next to a skyscraper (about 100m tall/330 feet - just barely meets the definition of skyscraper) that channels the wind past itself through this narrow chokepoint. Anyone who rides their bike through the area during even moderate winds is blown off, and when heavy winds pick up the place is truly awesome. I've gone there, covered in poofy jackets so I bounce when I land, and just let myself get blown away. It's tremendously fun. There's a large concrete gap where buses/trams go, maybe the width of a road (maybe 24 feet?) and the wind has picked me up on one side and set me down on another. (Occasionally requires jumping in the air first.) But if I want to get back home? I've got to wait hours, or walk in a large detour around the building.
- scrollaway 9y ago
  Care to share where that is? (Asking for a friend.)
  - owenversteeg 9y ago
    Hahahaha I'd rather not share my exact location publicly on HN as I live quite close to the building. But if anyone would like to know, my email is in my profile, and I'll be happy to explain how to get to the building with public transit, other things to do in the area, and how to get inside it if you'd like. (The building is in the Netherlands.) If you (or anyone else) wants to try this for yourself, simply find a place where wind is channeled through a small-ish opening. Small in this context just means "smaller than the walls around it" so even a house-sized opening can work. Searching Twitter/Google for complaints about wind or getting knocked down by the wind can help.
  - cr1895 9y ago
    I don't know the other person, but I studied at TUD which has a similar sounding phenomenon (can't be too uncommon in the NL; it's windy and flat). There's a tall, flat and narrow building around which wind can really rip. I've experienced it personally and it can be quite something during bad weather. Here's google streetview (you can even zoom into the high wind warning sign): https://www.google.nl/maps/@51.9991655,4.37303,3a,75y,43.4h,97.05t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1smmf6LrEjrK2J-_GcJ44Mmg!2e0!7i13312!8i6656!6m1!1e1 https://www.google.nl/maps/@51.9991655,4.37303,3a,75y,43.4h,... Here are a couple videos: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U6QtxJNhiog https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U6QtxJNhiog https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wuEMUkBELN0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wuEMUkBELN0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XnF1FFQe8oc https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XnF1FFQe8oc
mattkevan 9y ago
I used to cycle past the Walkie Talkie building on my daily commute - the draughts were so strong that on windy days it almost took me off my bike. And I have actually seen it knock people over. The worst thing about it though has to be the Skygarden at the top. It was built on some public space, so as part of the agreement, the builders had to include some 'public' space at the top. Unlike most public spaces I've been to however, you have to book in advance, are not allowed in groups over a certain size and have to go through full airport-style security. That's fitting however because when you're up there, the space has all the charm of an airport terminal. And, due to the way the girders are aligned, there's not even much of a view. Which is a stunning achievement really. The best feature has to be the fancy restaurant which takes up most of 'public' space. It's at the top of one of the taller buildings in London, right in the middle of the City and you can't see out.

207 points by matthberg 9y ago

Las Vegas condo/hotel Vdara, one of the highrises in the City Center development, was designed by the same architect as the Walkie Talkie -- Rafael Viñoly -- and exhibits the same solar convergence phenomenon; affectionately called the 'Vdara Death Ray' [1][2][3]. In a 2013 interview with the Guardian [4], he claims there was not much he could do about the Vdara, as the customer specifically wanted an arc-shaped building; in fact the the City Center development has several sweeping arc forms, like in the neighboring Aria -- but the concavity of the Aria's highrises aren't oriented south to converge the midday sun [5], whereas the Vdara aims them right at the pool deck [2]. For both Vdara and the Walkie Talkie, he claims to have been aware of the phenomenon going into the design but lacked the ability to correctly calculate the impact. Further, if claims are true, for the Walkie Talkie he said: "(...) the original design of the building had featured horizontal sun louvres on its south-facing facade, but these are believed to have been removed during cost-cutting as the project developed." [4] [1] https://www.reviewjournal.com/news/vdara-visitor-death-ray-scorched-hair/ https://www.reviewjournal.com/news/vdara-visitor-death-ray-s... [2] http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1315978/Las-Vegas-hotel-death-ray-leaves-guests-severe-burns.html http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1315978/Las-Vegas-ho... [3] http://www.businessinsider.com/the-vdara-death-ray-hotel-is-still-burning-people-in-las-vegas-2016-6 http://www.businessinsider.com/the-vdara-death-ray-hotel-is-... [4] https://www.theguardian.com/artanddesign/2013/sep/06/walkie-talkie-architect-predicted-reflection-sun-rays https://www.theguardian.com/artanddesign/2013/sep/06/walkie-... [5] http://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=17/36.10834/-115.17640 http://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=17/36.10834/-115.17640

kwhitefoot 9y ago
> lacked the ability to correctly calculate the impact And didn't bother to get the ability either.
- Declanomous 9y ago
  If you design a building that is literally a threat to public safety, and then you design a second building that poses the exact same threat, you should lose all professional licensure. If you do any work in that field again, you should be charged with criminal negligence or something similar.
  - ouid 9y ago
    Shouldn't you already be charged with criminal negligence for the second building?
  - Animats 9y ago
    "The developers have blamed the problem on "the current elevation of the sun in the sky," a position Viñoly seems inclined to share." Like that was a surprise.
    - Declanomous 9y ago
      I just googled him. He's super famous. So he probably has that Frank Lloyd Wright thing going for him, where his buildings have glaring flaws but they are let off the hook because their work is so acclaimed. On the topic of FLW, I've visited a number of his houses. One of my friends growing up lived in a Wright house. I've visited Wright's personal house, Taliesen. In my opinion, Wright is not really an architect. I consider Wright more of a sculptor or an artist. His designs are terribly impractical, and are not versatile in the least. Additionally, he didn't account for the limitations of the materials he was using to build his structures. So his buildings tend to require a lot of repairs, and many have structural problems, leaks, as well as general safety issues. Wright wasn't the least bit apologetic about any of these things, and it seems like Viñoly shares the same overwhelming egotism. On a somewhat hilarious note, when I went to visit Taliesin, there were several rooms which I thought were poorly designed, but had an element that I considered a saving grace. In literally every single instance, it was something his wife had added/altered after his death. So, point being, I think that when you allow an egotistical architect to design something without any sort of editorial limitation, you probably end up with a worse product overall.
hrktb 9y ago
And then London architects took care to reproduce this features religiously: http://uk.businessinsider.com/death-ray-skyscraper-is-wreaking-havoc-on-london-for-a-few-totally-insane-reasons-2015-7 http://uk.businessinsider.com/death-ray-skyscraper-is-wreaki...
- Analemma_ 9y ago
  Actually that building was designed by Viñoly too. He seems to have a personal preference for building death rays.
  - peferron 9y ago
    He seems pretty chill about it: "When it was spotted on a second design iteration, we judged the temperature was going to be about 36 degrees (Celsius). But it's turned out to be more like 72 degrees. They are calling it the 'death ray', because if you go there you might die. It is phenomenal, this thing." [1] [1] https://www.theguardian.com/artanddesign/2013/sep/06/walkie-talkie-architect-predicted-reflection-sun-rays https://www.theguardian.com/artanddesign/2013/sep/06/walkie-...
    - euyyn 9y ago
      That's what happens when a city government doesn't protect what to private owners are externalities. The owners of the building couldn't care less, and the architect gets the benefit of free publicity.
  - yborg 9y ago
    From the original article: 'fryscrapers'. I laughed.
Swizec 9y ago
Naive question, but wouldn't using a hyperbolic arc instead of a parabolic arc completely solve the issue?
- tajen 9y ago
  Or have windows that don't reflect the sun downwards.
  - kijin 9y ago
    Then you're shooting death rays in the sky, endangering aircraft like a thousand laser pointers.
    - firethief 9y ago
      Inverse square law. Any aircraft close enough to be affected are having a bad problem anyway.
      - MertsA 9y ago
        Yeah but that's with respect to the focal point. The focal point could be a good ways up in the air.
willyt 9y ago
Ha Ha! Welcome to the world of Starchitects. For a building like the Walkie Talkie, Vinõly would have been personally involved only at the very beginning. The question of who is actually responsible for removing the mitigation measures from the 'Walkie Talkie' is likely to be very complicated, depending on the procurement route taken by the client. It is quite likely that a 'Design Build' contract was used for the Walkie Talkie, where the concept architect hands over the design to a construction firm who then employs a completely separate team of architects and engineers to do the detailed construction design. The building is documented in the 'employers requirements' by the concept architects and then this package of information is handed over the contractor to fill out the details. I don't know how Vinõly works, but its possible his firm hands over the employers requirements quite early in the process and the problem solved by the fins wasn't clearly communicated to the design build contractor who then removed them to save money once Vinõly was no longer involved. This would explain why he was so blasé about the known problem with the concave design. http://www.pannone.com/media-centre/articles/construction-articles/walkie-talkie-shedding-light-construction-procurement http://www.pannone.com/media-centre/articles/construction-ar...
- emmelaich 9y ago
  > The question of who is actually responsible for removing the mitigation measures Same as the design phase. It is guaranteed that engineers would have foreseen and been able to calculate the heat intensity. They just didn't have enough influence or ownership of the problem.
  - poooogles 9y ago
    >Same as the design phase. It is guaranteed that engineers would have foreseen and been able to calculate the heat intensity. Not the case. For the walkie talkie it was evaluated and the design (including location and it's orientation) were passed by a consultancy for a bunch of environmental items. Seemingly that wasn't the case and they spent £13m retrofitting shutters. AFAIK the main contractor went after the consultancy for the money but I can't for the life of me find any references right now.

level 9y ago

Stephen avenue in Calgary has some structures that were built to prevent wind gusts between buildings[1]. The street has a lot of foot traffic and that area became windy after the two skyscrapers on either side were constructed. Not sure about the cost to the city, but they're interesting to look at and they seem to achieve their goal. [1] https://www.google.ca/maps/@51.0456499,-114.0704853,3a,75y,72.01h,104.94t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sFrzPaV8XiAi_NIMsxxL1qQ!2e0!7i13312!8i6656?hl=en https://www.google.ca/maps/@51.0456499,-114.0704853,3a,75y,7...

niftich 9y ago
Some more info on the trees: from Calgary Downtown Association [1], some excellent photographs from various sources [2][3][4], and from the structural engineer [5]. Sadly, the architects (Cohos Evamy, merged and renamed DIALOG) don't have a feature on their website or in an archive I could find. [1] http://www.calgarydowntown.com/saw/Stephen-avenue-info/stephen-avenue-galleria-trees.html http://www.calgarydowntown.com/saw/Stephen-avenue-info/steph... [2] https://christophermartinphotography.com/2010/10/22/the-trees-on-stephen-avenue https://christophermartinphotography.com/2010/10/22/the-tree... [3] http://calgary.skyrisecities.com/news/2016/10/steel-trees-stephen-avenue http://calgary.skyrisecities.com/news/2016/10/steel-trees-st... [4] http://www.tboake.com/steel/bankers_hall.html http://www.tboake.com/steel/bankers_hall.html [5] http://astint.on.ca/bankers-hall-galleria-trees-sculpture/ http://astint.on.ca/bankers-hall-galleria-trees-sculpture/
Gravityloss 9y ago
That's fascinating. I've always wished my city had things like these. Trees would be nice, but they grow slowly and just when they start being big enough to thrive, look good and be useful, some official decides they're dangerous or happen to be exactly on top of a new roadway. So I guess a cold dead mechanical tree is the best we could get.
- pm90 9y ago
  I wonder if this may be because of the weather, but why can't you grow vines on the metal trees to make it "green"? Or some sort of wall hugging vegetation. I mean, sure its not the same as a tree, but at least it might look nicer.

BuildTheRobots 9y ago

Bridgewater Place in Leeds (UK) has had at least one death caused by the wind tunnel effect now and regularly has to have road closures around it when it gets gusty (though living in the UK, at least bad weather isn't often a problem /s) edit: should have read the article before commenting, would you believe this is one of the first examples. Apologies for what turns out to be an entirely unnecessary comment.

meddlepal 9y ago

My favorite one of these in the John Hancock Tower in Boston which had to have its entire facade replaced and was known as the Plywood Palace while the work was underway: http://www.bostonmagazine.com/news/article/2014/07/29/plywood-palace-photograph-1974/ http://www.bostonmagazine.com/news/article/2014/07/29/plywoo.... Even to this day the winds around the base of the JHT can be obscenely high. I used to walk past it often from Back Bay station to my apartment down Stuart St. and the block it occupies when it lightly rains or snows it feels like a Hurricane vs the blocks immediately before and after it.

Animats 9y ago

A popular 1960s mistake was the open-column lobby floor, where the entrance level is smaller than the building above it. The air hitting the building is forced through the open area of the entrance level. This worked out OK in Brasilia, where a breeze was welcome, but it was terrible in cold, windy locations. Embarrassingly, MIT's Green Building was built like that.

ghaff 9y ago
Designed in part by I.M. Pei of popping windows in the Hancock building fame. Apparently, a revolving door had to be installed because sometimes people were physically unable to open the door because of the wind tunnel effect (or they had to enter through other buildings and take a tunnel). [1] [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Green_Building_(MIT) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Green_Building_(MIT) ADDED: There was even an MIT Musical Theater Guild filkish number way back at the dawn of time :-) about not being able to get into the Green Building to the tune of Charlie on the MBTA.
gumby 9y ago
Allegedly (back when I was an undergraduate in the 1980s) the calder sculpture outside was designed to deflect the wind to stop this problem. A great story, though I never found out if it was true or not.
- Animats 9y ago
  Wikipedia says no. It's too far from the building, and too small. The Grande Arche de la Défense just outside Paris has similar problems, and glass panels rise out of the ground during high winds to shield pedestrians.
flyinghamster 9y ago
Chicago has a few of those as well, though the Kluczynski and Dirksen Federal Buildings were designed by Ludwig Mies van der Rohe, and the Daley Center by Jacques Brownson.

wehadfun 9y ago

There is a building in Dallas called Museum Tower that has a reflective glare that effectively destroyed a popular piece at a near by museum.

matthberg 9y ago
This sounds fascinating, do you remember when this happened?
- tkahnoski 9y ago
  2012 This article has some good details on the story and a lot of drama around the project at the beginning https://www.dmagazine.com/publications/d-magazine/2012/may/museum-tower-the-towering-inferno/ https://www.dmagazine.com/publications/d-magazine/2012/may/m... It still hasn't been resolved. https://www.dallasnews.com/arts/museums/2016/09/25/fights-fantasy-fixes-fbi-museum-tower-nasher-still-odds-glare-five-years https://www.dallasnews.com/arts/museums/2016/09/25/fights-fa...
  - emmelaich 9y ago
    > It still hasn't been resolved .. and now we know why. It's politically impossible. If anyone else owned the building it would be fixed or the owners sued. > "The Dallas Police & Fire Pension System, which had earlier made a small investment in the Museum Tower project, announced that it would jump in with both feet and finance the entire thing, all $200 million of it"
- CapitalistCartr 9y ago
  According to Wikipedia, 2013. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Museum_Tower_(Dallas) https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Museum_Tower_(Dallas)
emmelaich 9y ago
Note that the artist declared it destroyed for aesthetic reasons. It wasn't burnt or melted as far as I can tell.

ouid 9y ago

Are there any times of day where the light coverges on a point in space above the street? Could a bird flying through this space catch fire?

ChuckMcM 9y ago

I always thought it would be interesting to set up a slightly convex mylar sheet at the base of the Vdara. Perhaps innocently as a 'shade' under the extra sun. The results of which would be an extended Schmidt-Cassegrain type mirror arrangement that would deliver somewhere around 10x the solar insolation into the unfortunate condo at the focal point of the sheet. It would be irresponsible to say the least, and have terrible optics, but it appeals to my darker side.

deleted 9y ago
[deleted]

imgabe 9y ago

I think it would be cool to use some of these things deliberately. If you can design the building to generate 80mph winds, why not put a turbine in their path? If the building is going to focus the sun into a "death ray", point it at a Stirling engine.

hammock 9y ago
This sort of exists already, quite common. Roof turbine vents: https://www.google.com/search?q=roof+turbine+vent&source=lnms&tbm=isch https://www.google.com/search?q=roof+turbine+vent&source=lnm...
- iamdave 9y ago
  Aren't those specifically used for ventilation though? I think comment you're replying to was thinking turbines to generate power
  - hammock 9y ago
    Maybe... he wasn't specific. I was thinking bigger as that wind energy could be used for things other than electricity generation.
iaskwhy 9y ago
Something related, the Castle House in London[0]. Didn't confirm but I believe it didn't work in the end. [0] http://intelligenttravel.nationalgeographic.com/2007/09/14/elephant_castle_goes_green/ http://intelligenttravel.nationalgeographic.com/2007/09/14/e...

bionsuba 9y ago

> Non-reflective film has since been added, but not before the building earned a new nicknames like “Walkie-Scorchie” You can always count on the Brits for coming up with great names for things.

21 9y ago
Now being built, the "can of ham": https://architizer-prod.imgix.net/media/1422058020643Can-of-Ham.jpg https://architizer-prod.imgix.net/media/1422058020643Can-of-... http://media.gizmodo.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2015/01/ContriversialBuildings-CanofHam.jpg http://media.gizmodo.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2015/01/Contri...
- wahern 9y ago
  So are Brits good a coming up with nicknames, or are they simply more apt to build enormous buildings that look like common household items?
  - Symbiote 9y ago
    In order to get permission to build a large building in central London, it's necessary to have a distinctive, unique design. The city does not want to look like America. Hence, the Gherkin, Cheesegrater, Can of Ham, Walkie Talkie, Shard, Helter-skelter.

makr17 9y ago

Doesn't need to be a skyscraper. Similar focus problems with the Disney Hall in Los Angeles: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Walt_Disney_Concert_Hall#Reflection_problems https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Walt_Disney_Concert_Hall#Refle...

Shivetya 9y ago

The fun bit about this is that some may get the same effect at home from their windows. I know my SW facing windows will reflect little X shapes onto the back lawn and when you cross one they are noticeably hot. it is almost useful in winter So what I am saying is that while some sky scrapers/etc can cause issues its the design/surface of all window surfaces that cause issues. it just is a matter of scale

justavoice 9y ago

Sounds like a great way to collect wind/solar energy...

aaron695 9y ago

Come on. If you have to talk about the cliche skyscraper that cooks eggs everyone knows about, it's not really a story, it's more news, a one off (OK there was also one in Las Vegas) The wind thing is interesting perhaps. Is that an actual engineering issue?

egypturnash 9y ago

Another wonderful side effect of the vast concentration of capital! Who cares about the peons outside as long as the CEO gets to be in the tallest building?

frik 9y ago

The "Grande Arche" in Paris has some glass protection wall to minimize channel winds. Still a very windy place. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grande_Arche https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grande_Arche

RcouF1uZ4gsC 9y ago

Software engineering often gets criticized as being so error prone compared to "real" engineering. These buildings demonstrate, that when you combine marketing, egos, a desire for novelty, and ignorance of constraints you can get massive disasters, just like with software.

lloeki 9y ago

The plaza and cathedral of Strasbourg (which you can see at the very beginning of one of the Sherlock Holmes movies starring R. Downey Jr.) has been engineered to channel wind around the cathedral, instilling a devilish, chilling feel and making the cathedral stand out as a safe haven.

owenversteeg 9y ago

I live next to a skyscraper (about 100m tall/330 feet - just barely meets the definition of skyscraper) that channels the wind past itself through this narrow chokepoint. Anyone who rides their bike through the area during even moderate winds is blown off, and when heavy winds pick up the place is truly awesome. I've gone there, covered in poofy jackets so I bounce when I land, and just let myself get blown away. It's tremendously fun. There's a large concrete gap where buses/trams go, maybe the width of a road (maybe 24 feet?) and the wind has picked me up on one side and set me down on another. (Occasionally requires jumping in the air first.) But if I want to get back home? I've got to wait hours, or walk in a large detour around the building.

scrollaway 9y ago
Care to share where that is? (Asking for a friend.)
- owenversteeg 9y ago
  Hahahaha I'd rather not share my exact location publicly on HN as I live quite close to the building. But if anyone would like to know, my email is in my profile, and I'll be happy to explain how to get to the building with public transit, other things to do in the area, and how to get inside it if you'd like. (The building is in the Netherlands.) If you (or anyone else) wants to try this for yourself, simply find a place where wind is channeled through a small-ish opening. Small in this context just means "smaller than the walls around it" so even a house-sized opening can work. Searching Twitter/Google for complaints about wind or getting knocked down by the wind can help.
- cr1895 9y ago
  I don't know the other person, but I studied at TUD which has a similar sounding phenomenon (can't be too uncommon in the NL; it's windy and flat). There's a tall, flat and narrow building around which wind can really rip. I've experienced it personally and it can be quite something during bad weather. Here's google streetview (you can even zoom into the high wind warning sign): https://www.google.nl/maps/@51.9991655,4.37303,3a,75y,43.4h,97.05t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1smmf6LrEjrK2J-_GcJ44Mmg!2e0!7i13312!8i6656!6m1!1e1 https://www.google.nl/maps/@51.9991655,4.37303,3a,75y,43.4h,... Here are a couple videos: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U6QtxJNhiog https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U6QtxJNhiog https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wuEMUkBELN0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wuEMUkBELN0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XnF1FFQe8oc https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XnF1FFQe8oc

mattkevan 9y ago

I used to cycle past the Walkie Talkie building on my daily commute - the draughts were so strong that on windy days it almost took me off my bike. And I have actually seen it knock people over. The worst thing about it though has to be the Skygarden at the top. It was built on some public space, so as part of the agreement, the builders had to include some 'public' space at the top. Unlike most public spaces I've been to however, you have to book in advance, are not allowed in groups over a certain size and have to go through full airport-style security. That's fitting however because when you're up there, the space has all the charm of an airport terminal. And, due to the way the girders are aligned, there's not even much of a view. Which is a stunning achievement really. The best feature has to be the fancy restaurant which takes up most of 'public' space. It's at the top of one of the taller buildings in London, right in the middle of the City and you can't see out.