4 ms·

Do people really learn _only_ from SO? I mean sure, it can solve problem at hand but learning a new language or technology? I don't see how it could compete wit

by suls 9y ago

Do people really learn _only_ from SO? I mean sure, it can solve problem at hand but learning a new language or technology? I don't see how it could compete with books in any way

kitsunesoba 9y ago
I think what makes SO more appealing than books to many is that SO questions are usually micro-focused on very specific tasks, and are often asked from an end-goal standpoint rather than a mechanical one. Where traditional reference has a prerequisite of a certain level of knowledge to utilize (mostly the capability to break down problems and know where those lines lay), SO users can simply ask how to accomplish their overarching goal and someone more knowledgeable can supply an answer detailing what the poster actually wants to do, with all the substeps laid out. Personally, I have a hard time retaining technical book content unless I'm immediately utilizing what I've read, which is mighty inconvenient. If I stop writing code for the time it takes to flip through a book and find the relevant bits, I've lost my flow. It's much faster to google and flip through blog posts and SO questions.
pjc50 9y ago
Programming language books are and were often very bad. There was a huge industry in giving very detailed step-by-step guides that didn't help the reader to think and had very low information density. Some books were useful to me, but they were "diamonds in the rough". Searchable documentation and result-focused tutorials available these days are usually much better. Although I can't understand the people who want to learn from videos.
- EliRivers 9y ago
  "Although I can't understand the people who want to learn from videos." I think the appeal must be the very low rate of information transmission. Watching someone typing slowly onto the screen, while saying out loud what they're typing, under the guise of presenting a "tutorial" on how to fetch input from the keyboard ("tutorial" being a very grand word for a slowly presented code listing) is something anyone can keep up with (although probably shouldn't bother). That said, compare those to things like Casey Muratori who manages to push information at a higher rate doing essentially the same thing, except that he isn't just reading out loud what he's typing. Again, the information density and transmission rate thereof cannot begin to compare to a book, but there is something of a range to be found. Straying from the topic, I've come around to the conclusion that there are a lot of people who want to be able to do things, but really don't know how to learn. To take on large amounts of new information, to think with it and ally it to what you already know and to adapt it to your purposes, and to do this for an extended time, is a skill like any other; it must be acquired, and exercised. If you don't know how to learn, if you aren't practised in it, a decent textbook might be simply unassailable for you and all you can do is inefficiently monkey-see-monkey-do your way around SO until eventually you've put together enough pieces to start actually building your own understanding. So I suppose I've come to a second answer to the question; before SO, you either didn't learn at all, or you learned with an efficiency that must seem blisteringly powerful to some kid trying to bootstrap himself by trying to find the answer to "Why does it break when I try to store a string in a single char?" without even knowing that's the question to ask.
- eropple 9y ago
  > Programming language books are and were often very bad. They still are, and there's a downward pressure on them to be at best mediocre--because that's the audience. I wrote a sample chapter and TOC for a large book publisher a year or so ago and got back feedback from the editor that amounted to "I enjoyed reading this despite not knowing the topic, and I think I have a good grasp on it now, but the prose is too complex for our average reader." (Which implies some really unfortunate stuff about their average reader completely separate from their technical acumen.) The best books I recall were actually For Dummies books, of all things--well-written, engaging, and conversational. As I recall, Wallace Wang, the author of the ones I remember most vividly, was/is a stand-up comic, and his prose stuck with me twenty years later. About Visual Basic, of all things!
bdcravens 9y ago
I don't think people learn, but get answers to specific problems. However, I'd say the bulk of your learning throughout your career comes after you "learn" a language.
- bussierem 9y ago
  Actually, I've been recently diving into some frameworks that I've never used before, and some knowledge domains I have no experience with, and I can say that I've definitely used Stack Overflow to "learn". Not in the traditional sense, but almost more like an index. I'll ask "how do I do <basic concept> in <framework>", check the SO results for a well documented and thought out response (not just code snippets), and start reading. On the side in a notepad I type up the terms/concepts they talk a lot about in that post that seem necessary to understanding their post (which I do NOT usually fully understand). Then I close that tab and start learning about those concepts. Sometime's I'll also do that with code from SO - find code that works in a microcosm, and tinker on it to see what it does, look at documentation, APIs, tutorials, etc. I personally have found this to be very effective, far moreso FOR ME than a book ever could be (even a PDF book w/ searching)

by suls 9y ago

Do people really learn _only_ from SO? I mean sure, it can solve problem at hand but learning a new language or technology? I don't see how it could compete with books in any way

kitsunesoba 9y ago

I think what makes SO more appealing than books to many is that SO questions are usually micro-focused on very specific tasks, and are often asked from an end-goal standpoint rather than a mechanical one. Where traditional reference has a prerequisite of a certain level of knowledge to utilize (mostly the capability to break down problems and know where those lines lay), SO users can simply ask how to accomplish their overarching goal and someone more knowledgeable can supply an answer detailing what the poster actually wants to do, with all the substeps laid out. Personally, I have a hard time retaining technical book content unless I'm immediately utilizing what I've read, which is mighty inconvenient. If I stop writing code for the time it takes to flip through a book and find the relevant bits, I've lost my flow. It's much faster to google and flip through blog posts and SO questions.

pjc50 9y ago

Programming language books are and were often very bad. There was a huge industry in giving very detailed step-by-step guides that didn't help the reader to think and had very low information density. Some books were useful to me, but they were "diamonds in the rough". Searchable documentation and result-focused tutorials available these days are usually much better. Although I can't understand the people who want to learn from videos.

EliRivers 9y ago
"Although I can't understand the people who want to learn from videos." I think the appeal must be the very low rate of information transmission. Watching someone typing slowly onto the screen, while saying out loud what they're typing, under the guise of presenting a "tutorial" on how to fetch input from the keyboard ("tutorial" being a very grand word for a slowly presented code listing) is something anyone can keep up with (although probably shouldn't bother). That said, compare those to things like Casey Muratori who manages to push information at a higher rate doing essentially the same thing, except that he isn't just reading out loud what he's typing. Again, the information density and transmission rate thereof cannot begin to compare to a book, but there is something of a range to be found. Straying from the topic, I've come around to the conclusion that there are a lot of people who want to be able to do things, but really don't know how to learn. To take on large amounts of new information, to think with it and ally it to what you already know and to adapt it to your purposes, and to do this for an extended time, is a skill like any other; it must be acquired, and exercised. If you don't know how to learn, if you aren't practised in it, a decent textbook might be simply unassailable for you and all you can do is inefficiently monkey-see-monkey-do your way around SO until eventually you've put together enough pieces to start actually building your own understanding. So I suppose I've come to a second answer to the question; before SO, you either didn't learn at all, or you learned with an efficiency that must seem blisteringly powerful to some kid trying to bootstrap himself by trying to find the answer to "Why does it break when I try to store a string in a single char?" without even knowing that's the question to ask.
eropple 9y ago
> Programming language books are and were often very bad. They still are, and there's a downward pressure on them to be at best mediocre--because that's the audience. I wrote a sample chapter and TOC for a large book publisher a year or so ago and got back feedback from the editor that amounted to "I enjoyed reading this despite not knowing the topic, and I think I have a good grasp on it now, but the prose is too complex for our average reader." (Which implies some really unfortunate stuff about their average reader completely separate from their technical acumen.) The best books I recall were actually For Dummies books, of all things--well-written, engaging, and conversational. As I recall, Wallace Wang, the author of the ones I remember most vividly, was/is a stand-up comic, and his prose stuck with me twenty years later. About Visual Basic, of all things!

bdcravens 9y ago

I don't think people learn, but get answers to specific problems. However, I'd say the bulk of your learning throughout your career comes after you "learn" a language.

bussierem 9y ago
Actually, I've been recently diving into some frameworks that I've never used before, and some knowledge domains I have no experience with, and I can say that I've definitely used Stack Overflow to "learn". Not in the traditional sense, but almost more like an index. I'll ask "how do I do <basic concept> in <framework>", check the SO results for a well documented and thought out response (not just code snippets), and start reading. On the side in a notepad I type up the terms/concepts they talk a lot about in that post that seem necessary to understanding their post (which I do NOT usually fully understand). Then I close that tab and start learning about those concepts. Sometime's I'll also do that with code from SO - find code that works in a microcosm, and tinker on it to see what it does, look at documentation, APIs, tutorials, etc. I personally have found this to be very effective, far moreso FOR ME than a book ever could be (even a PDF book w/ searching)