7 ms·

It makes me really sad that young children will never get the experience I had when flying, of going into the cockpit during a flight and looking at all the but

It makes me really sad that young children will never get the experience I had when flying, of going into the cockpit during a flight and looking at all the buttons and talking to the pilot. :(

DamonHD 9y ago
Well, not just as a kid for me. One pilot showed me just how much work the autopilot did by turning it off and turning our glassy-smooth commuter jet ride into a bumpy and alarming one. I hope the other 150 people in the cabin didn't get as worried as I did!
glbrew 9y ago
A child in the cockpit once accidentally disengaged some controls which eventually resulted in a crash that killed all 75 people on board. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aeroflot_Flight_593 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aeroflot_Flight_593
- mseebach 9y ago
  > One of the children had unknowingly disengaged the A310 autopilot's control over the aircraft's ailerons while seated at the controls. [...] With the autopilot active, Kudrinsky, against regulations, let the children sit at the controls I remember visiting the cockpit pre-9/11 and it did not include being invited to sit at the controls. Or, in other words, children visiting the cockpit was probably more the proximate cause than the root cause.
- GuB-42 9y ago
  There is a difference between letting a child in the cockpit and having him sit in the pilot seat, as it was the case in the Aeroflot Flight 593 crash.
- AlphaWeaver 9y ago
  The child sitting at the controls was the pilots child, that's the reason for the increased (but certainly unacceptable) access.
- ApolloFortyNine 9y ago
  This is actually an odd case, as it was mainly the result of improper training and different configurations between two planes. In a Boeing plane, autopilot will never disengage without specifically being disengaged. In an Airbus plane, giving a 'harsh' enough input will disengage the autopilot. The pilot here mainly had experience on Boeing, so was not aware of this minor but very important difference. The Air France flight that crashed into the Ocean by Brazil was also partly the fault of different designs by the two major aircraft manufacturers. In Boeing planes, the input is synced between the pilot and copilot (if one pulls up, the other physically moves as well). In Airbus planes however, the input is merged together instead. If one pilot pulls up, and one is pushing down, nothing really happens. This ended up partly leading to the crash, as one pilot heard the stall warning and pulled up (causing more speed loss), while the other pilot correctly pushed down. If the inputs were synced, the other pilot likely would have noticed his copilot was making the wrong input.
  - StavrosK 9y ago
    > In Airbus planes however, the input is merged together instead. If one pilot pulls up, and one is pushing down, nothing really happens. Which is just crazy! I wonder who the product manager who thought "what should happen if one pilot is pushing on the stick and the other is pulling? I know, just average them and fly straight" was. There are various things you can do in that situation that would kind of make sense (the Boeing design being the best), and that is not one of them.
    - erikpukinskis 9y ago
      They might have thought "there is no sensible answer in that case, so just have the behavior be the natural operation of the existing systems as designed" which turned out to be adding the inputs.
      - mikeash 9y ago
        Except that there is a sensible answer: you physically force the two controls to synchronize. Once you settle on a design where the two controls move independently of each other, then yes, there's no sensible answer. But, don't do that.
- dagenleg 9y ago
  That transcript is harrowing.
- ryguytilidie 9y ago
  Seems kind of similar to the plot of the Grisham novel Airframe.
  - mendelk 9y ago
    s/Grisham/Crichton
ehnto 9y ago
One of my fondest childhood memories was nearly crashing a three story ferry into the side of a canal after the captain let us hold the wheel. He very quickly took over and I doubt we were ever in danger, but I can definitely understand a reluctance to let kids even stand close to the cockpit controls. It's all wholesome until an engine shuts down!
- Bluestrike2 9y ago
  It's nowhere near the same, but I remember being a little kid back in '96 (maybe '97, I'd have to call up my mom and ask) and getting to ride up front with the monorail pilot at Disney World. Anyhow, kids aren't the only danger in the cockpit. Around the same time, I rode in a Bell helicopter with family members during a local festival. An older cousin in his 60s at the time sat up front with the pilot. Trying to "get comfortable," he'd slammed his foot against one of the pedals and managed to bump the cyclic in his surprise. Needless to say, the pilot wasn't very happy once we landed.
  - fivestar 9y ago
    Shouldn't the pilot have instructed him to keep his feet off the pedals before takeoff? Seriously, a minute going over safety procedures with a neophyte and nothing would have happened.
    - Bluestrike2 9y ago
      I'd assume he did, because it's kind of an obvious thing in hindsight. But I was pretty young at the time, so I don't really have a clue beyond what stuck in my memories.
- Symbiote 9y ago
  A couple of times in the 1990s I 'drove' a steam locomotive [1], with coaches, on the tourist railway not too far from where we lived. I was about 9 or 10, and was only just strong enough to push or pull the regulator (controls how much steam is allowed into the piston). The driver explained the important gauges, like the boiler water level and pressure, and showed the tiny view ahead which he had to use to look at signals. And the shelf above the firebox, which could be used to keep tea warm. [1] One of these: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SR_V_Schools_class https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SR_V_Schools_class
akhilcacharya 9y ago
Eh, it's not that bad, just do it before or after the flight. Source: Did it as a child twice

It makes me really sad that young children will never get the experience I had when flying, of going into the cockpit during a flight and looking at all the buttons and talking to the pilot. :(

DamonHD 9y ago

Well, not just as a kid for me. One pilot showed me just how much work the autopilot did by turning it off and turning our glassy-smooth commuter jet ride into a bumpy and alarming one. I hope the other 150 people in the cabin didn't get as worried as I did!

glbrew 9y ago

A child in the cockpit once accidentally disengaged some controls which eventually resulted in a crash that killed all 75 people on board. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aeroflot_Flight_593 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aeroflot_Flight_593

mseebach 9y ago
> One of the children had unknowingly disengaged the A310 autopilot's control over the aircraft's ailerons while seated at the controls. [...] With the autopilot active, Kudrinsky, against regulations, let the children sit at the controls I remember visiting the cockpit pre-9/11 and it did not include being invited to sit at the controls. Or, in other words, children visiting the cockpit was probably more the proximate cause than the root cause.
GuB-42 9y ago
There is a difference between letting a child in the cockpit and having him sit in the pilot seat, as it was the case in the Aeroflot Flight 593 crash.
AlphaWeaver 9y ago
The child sitting at the controls was the pilots child, that's the reason for the increased (but certainly unacceptable) access.
ApolloFortyNine 9y ago
This is actually an odd case, as it was mainly the result of improper training and different configurations between two planes. In a Boeing plane, autopilot will never disengage without specifically being disengaged. In an Airbus plane, giving a 'harsh' enough input will disengage the autopilot. The pilot here mainly had experience on Boeing, so was not aware of this minor but very important difference. The Air France flight that crashed into the Ocean by Brazil was also partly the fault of different designs by the two major aircraft manufacturers. In Boeing planes, the input is synced between the pilot and copilot (if one pulls up, the other physically moves as well). In Airbus planes however, the input is merged together instead. If one pilot pulls up, and one is pushing down, nothing really happens. This ended up partly leading to the crash, as one pilot heard the stall warning and pulled up (causing more speed loss), while the other pilot correctly pushed down. If the inputs were synced, the other pilot likely would have noticed his copilot was making the wrong input.
- StavrosK 9y ago
  > In Airbus planes however, the input is merged together instead. If one pilot pulls up, and one is pushing down, nothing really happens. Which is just crazy! I wonder who the product manager who thought "what should happen if one pilot is pushing on the stick and the other is pulling? I know, just average them and fly straight" was. There are various things you can do in that situation that would kind of make sense (the Boeing design being the best), and that is not one of them.
  - erikpukinskis 9y ago
    They might have thought "there is no sensible answer in that case, so just have the behavior be the natural operation of the existing systems as designed" which turned out to be adding the inputs.
    - mikeash 9y ago
      Except that there is a sensible answer: you physically force the two controls to synchronize. Once you settle on a design where the two controls move independently of each other, then yes, there's no sensible answer. But, don't do that.
dagenleg 9y ago
That transcript is harrowing.
ryguytilidie 9y ago
Seems kind of similar to the plot of the Grisham novel Airframe.
- mendelk 9y ago
  s/Grisham/Crichton

ehnto 9y ago

One of my fondest childhood memories was nearly crashing a three story ferry into the side of a canal after the captain let us hold the wheel. He very quickly took over and I doubt we were ever in danger, but I can definitely understand a reluctance to let kids even stand close to the cockpit controls. It's all wholesome until an engine shuts down!

Bluestrike2 9y ago
It's nowhere near the same, but I remember being a little kid back in '96 (maybe '97, I'd have to call up my mom and ask) and getting to ride up front with the monorail pilot at Disney World. Anyhow, kids aren't the only danger in the cockpit. Around the same time, I rode in a Bell helicopter with family members during a local festival. An older cousin in his 60s at the time sat up front with the pilot. Trying to "get comfortable," he'd slammed his foot against one of the pedals and managed to bump the cyclic in his surprise. Needless to say, the pilot wasn't very happy once we landed.
- fivestar 9y ago
  Shouldn't the pilot have instructed him to keep his feet off the pedals before takeoff? Seriously, a minute going over safety procedures with a neophyte and nothing would have happened.
  - Bluestrike2 9y ago
    I'd assume he did, because it's kind of an obvious thing in hindsight. But I was pretty young at the time, so I don't really have a clue beyond what stuck in my memories.
Symbiote 9y ago
A couple of times in the 1990s I 'drove' a steam locomotive [1], with coaches, on the tourist railway not too far from where we lived. I was about 9 or 10, and was only just strong enough to push or pull the regulator (controls how much steam is allowed into the piston). The driver explained the important gauges, like the boiler water level and pressure, and showed the tiny view ahead which he had to use to look at signals. And the shelf above the firebox, which could be used to keep tea warm. [1] One of these: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SR_V_Schools_class https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SR_V_Schools_class

akhilcacharya 9y ago

Eh, it's not that bad, just do it before or after the flight. Source: Did it as a child twice