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I'd say this assessment is clouded by your own judgements of Uber. Uber is vastly larger than Lyft. I've taken Uber's all over the world (Europe, South America)

I'd say this assessment is clouded by your own judgements of Uber. Uber is vastly larger than Lyft. I've taken Uber's all over the world (Europe, South America), Lyft barely has market penetration in rural areas of the United States. I recently bet my friend who is supremely confident that United Airlines business will be significantly impacted due to the passenger incident. Thus far, it appears United is doing just fine[1], in fact they may be on pace for a blowout Q2 quarter. Money in the bank. Moral of the story... These types of negative incidents (In my opinion I call it the constant outrage complex) rarely affects finance fundamentals of solid businesses. If you want to take a moral stand against Uber you are absolutely entitled to that and that is fine with me. [1] https://www.thestreet.com/story/14125827/1/united-reports-7-4-increase-in-revenue-passenger-miles-in-april.html https://www.thestreet.com/story/14125827/1/united-reports-7-...

praptak 9y ago
Such incidents set the climate for the debate that is perhaps relatively unimportant for United but critical for Uber: regulation.
CPLX 9y ago
But the finance fundamentals of Uber are truly horrible. Their only explanation for literally lighting billions of dollars in funds on fire to subsidize rides is supposedly to consolidate market share. If they don't have a defensible position and they lose money on every transaction what exactly do they have to show for it?
- reallydontask 9y ago
  I guess Uber loses money on each sale but makes it up on volume? :)
- nodesocket 9y ago
  Sure Uber is losing gobs of money, but that's not the most important metric at this stage for them. Look at Tesla, they lost 330 million in 2017 Q1. You absolutely will find bears against Tesla, but that's mainly because of its current $324 share price, not its fundamental business which is losing money.
  - riffraff 9y ago
    but then what is the most important metric for Uber? AFAIR they are not growing as fast as they were, and have been all but outlawed in many places already.
    - nodesocket 9y ago
      Actually there are only a handful of places in the US where Uber is banned. Contrary to popular belief (and intentionally propagated by smear campaigns), Uber wasn't banned in Austin TX... they pulled out of that market voluntarily.
      - chillydawg 9y ago
        That's like believing a politician is ACTUALLY resigning to spend more time with their family.
        Zarel 9y ago
        You are so wrong I don't know where to start. You're talking about a situation where a politician resigns to avoid being impeached or otherwise deposed. That has basically zero to do with Uber and Lyft leaving Austin. We know exactly what laws Austin has (laws are not secret). And it's not like it's remotely unclear what happened: Uber and Lyft left in protest of the law requiring background checks for them. You could speculate that they were trying to strong-arm Austin into repealing that law, but it didn't work. But there's zero reason to believe that they were secretly forced out, unlike the case with the politician, where the incentives are obvious.
        jakubp 9y ago
        If I enter a market, then the market penalizes me for breaching its rules, and I pull out, I am not calling it "voluntary".
      - Tepix 9y ago
        Why talk about the US? It's only one market of many. In many other countries Uber has been banned.
- quonn 9y ago
  > literally lighting billions of dollars in funds on fire Figuratively. But even that's not true, since customers have saved real money and spent it elsewhere.
  - Joeri 9y ago
    So, uber is really a secret socialist scheme to redistribute wealth from the investors to uber's customers?
    - alokdhari 9y ago
      I should start using Uber more often if that is true.
    - CydeWeys 9y ago
      Heh, it's kind of funny when you look at it like that. It's the opposite of the typical fleecing scheme, wherein a publicly owned company enriches the big guys at the little guys' expense (a la Enron). Uber is doing the opposite, since it isn't publicly traded and only has large rich investors: They're saving lots of little guys' money on car fares at the expense of the few big guy investors.
      - pm90 9y ago
        For now. Their plan, as far as I can see, is to totally dominate the market. Once, and if that happens, they will raise their prices, and once again the little guy's money will be going in the pockets of the big guys.
    - SeanBoocock 9y ago
      On a short enough timescale sure. On a longer one it is exactly the opposite: a play to redefine and own the future of automotive transportation.
  - CPLX 9y ago
    Literally. Usage #2: https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/literally https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/literally
bigbugbag 9y ago
Although Uber has a better market penetration right now, it seems each day we're getting closer to the tipping point for Uber. Once Uber loses traction and grip, what prevents the now uber driver to switch to become lyft drivers ? People looking for rides do not care if it's uber or lyft or something else as long they have a ride and it's not too expensive. United Airlines having a good Q2 quarters will not help Uber in any way escape the trial vs google or suddenly give them a profitable business model other than let's burn through investor money and conspire to get google technology to get rid of the drivers in the not so distant future.
- Semaphor 9y ago
  > what prevents the now uber driver to switch to become lyft drivers ? The (non)availability of Lyft all over the world except one country. According to some quick googling, Uber exists in 80 countries without Lyft.
  - pawadu 9y ago
    I think the point OP is making is that Uber doesn't really own anything outside mindshare. The drivers are after all free agents. Once the VC money used to subsidize rides dries out basically any company can challenge Uber. Which is why Uber wants to cut their dependence on drivers by using self driving cars. Then they will actually own something (the technology) in addition to the mindshare.
    - Semaphor 9y ago
      I just think that this will take possibly a very long time. Lyft wants to stay in the US and just partner with services in other countries. So new ones need to pop up and not suck (I tried a local South African one, besides no available drivers where I was, the app was absolutely horrible) AND manage to survive long enough to actually be a relevant service compared to uber.
    - rtx 9y ago
      They own the process knowledge to operate a Taxi company in 80 countries. Atleast what I have see in India they are beating OLA another competitor like Lyft.
the_mitsuhiko 9y ago
Uber in Europe stopped expanding and is very different in some places. For instance in Berlin you hail normal cabs with it.
dalbasal 9y ago
I'm in no position to guess which way winds are blowing but... I don't think uber (or lyft) will ever be totally dominant purely because of network effects. Passengers and (especially) drivers are mobile, and can switch services back and forward between apps. All you need to compete is a regional network. The global network is helpful on the margins, but an uber for Lisbon should work fine.
- mstade 9y ago
  Anecdata to support your point: in Stockholm the taxi companies have caught up in terms of convenience vis-à-vis apps, registering payment methods etc., to the point where I just use them rather than Uber. To me, Uber never competed on price, it was the convenience, and the competition has caught up to the point where Uber now seems clunky almost.
  - mi100hael 9y ago
    Uber definitely competes on price. Their fares are almost always the lowest of any competitor, especially compared to traditional cabs. That's essentially their only strategy other than allowing mobile hailing & payment (which is not particularly hard to replicate). The reason Uber is blowing through so much venture capital is because they are bleeding cash in all directions on fare subsidies.
    - CaptainZapp 9y ago
      Are you willing to let Uber spy permanently on you in order to save a few bucks? http://www.wired.co.uk/article/uber-track-location-data-update-turn-off http://www.wired.co.uk/article/uber-track-location-data-upda...
      - doomslice 9y ago
        Not suggesting that this is the difference between it being worth it or not for an individual person, but I didn't feel like taking an Uber this time out of LAX and did a traditional cab to Pasadena -- it was $90. The Uber app quoted me at $38 and $33 if I had wanted to do pool (side note, I've ridden pool 3 times between LAX and Pasadena and not once have they ever picked up another passenger). A savings of $50 for a one way trip is definitely at the point where the "spying" is worth it for me.
bernardlunn 9y ago
Yes, another example is Wells Fargo, stock not that much affected - yet. It takes time, but consumer sentiment is eventually unstoppable like water wearing down rock
jsemrau 9y ago
This thread is about Uber, but in my opinion United will not be largely affected because they have a quasi monopoly on many routes, especially out of Newark. [1]https://futuretravel.today/united-airlines-should-go-out-of-business-325e9983e51f https://futuretravel.today/united-airlines-should-go-out-of-...
vxNsr 9y ago
It can be argued that the very significant changes United made to their training and rebooking procedures are the business impact. Just because they were able to quickly triage and come up with a workable solution I wouldn't say they weren't impacted.

praptak 9y ago

Such incidents set the climate for the debate that is perhaps relatively unimportant for United but critical for Uber: regulation.

CPLX 9y ago

But the finance fundamentals of Uber are truly horrible. Their only explanation for literally lighting billions of dollars in funds on fire to subsidize rides is supposedly to consolidate market share. If they don't have a defensible position and they lose money on every transaction what exactly do they have to show for it?

reallydontask 9y ago
I guess Uber loses money on each sale but makes it up on volume? :)
nodesocket 9y ago
Sure Uber is losing gobs of money, but that's not the most important metric at this stage for them. Look at Tesla, they lost 330 million in 2017 Q1. You absolutely will find bears against Tesla, but that's mainly because of its current $324 share price, not its fundamental business which is losing money.
- riffraff 9y ago
  but then what is the most important metric for Uber? AFAIR they are not growing as fast as they were, and have been all but outlawed in many places already.
  - nodesocket 9y ago
    Actually there are only a handful of places in the US where Uber is banned. Contrary to popular belief (and intentionally propagated by smear campaigns), Uber wasn't banned in Austin TX... they pulled out of that market voluntarily.
    - chillydawg 9y ago
      That's like believing a politician is ACTUALLY resigning to spend more time with their family.
      - Zarel 9y ago
        You are so wrong I don't know where to start. You're talking about a situation where a politician resigns to avoid being impeached or otherwise deposed. That has basically zero to do with Uber and Lyft leaving Austin. We know exactly what laws Austin has (laws are not secret). And it's not like it's remotely unclear what happened: Uber and Lyft left in protest of the law requiring background checks for them. You could speculate that they were trying to strong-arm Austin into repealing that law, but it didn't work. But there's zero reason to believe that they were secretly forced out, unlike the case with the politician, where the incentives are obvious.
        jakubp 9y ago
        If I enter a market, then the market penalizes me for breaching its rules, and I pull out, I am not calling it "voluntary".
    - Tepix 9y ago
      Why talk about the US? It's only one market of many. In many other countries Uber has been banned.
quonn 9y ago
> literally lighting billions of dollars in funds on fire Figuratively. But even that's not true, since customers have saved real money and spent it elsewhere.
- Joeri 9y ago
  So, uber is really a secret socialist scheme to redistribute wealth from the investors to uber's customers?
  - alokdhari 9y ago
    I should start using Uber more often if that is true.
  - CydeWeys 9y ago
    Heh, it's kind of funny when you look at it like that. It's the opposite of the typical fleecing scheme, wherein a publicly owned company enriches the big guys at the little guys' expense (a la Enron). Uber is doing the opposite, since it isn't publicly traded and only has large rich investors: They're saving lots of little guys' money on car fares at the expense of the few big guy investors.
    - pm90 9y ago
      For now. Their plan, as far as I can see, is to totally dominate the market. Once, and if that happens, they will raise their prices, and once again the little guy's money will be going in the pockets of the big guys.
  - SeanBoocock 9y ago
    On a short enough timescale sure. On a longer one it is exactly the opposite: a play to redefine and own the future of automotive transportation.
- CPLX 9y ago
  Literally. Usage #2: https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/literally https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/literally

bigbugbag 9y ago

Although Uber has a better market penetration right now, it seems each day we're getting closer to the tipping point for Uber. Once Uber loses traction and grip, what prevents the now uber driver to switch to become lyft drivers ? People looking for rides do not care if it's uber or lyft or something else as long they have a ride and it's not too expensive. United Airlines having a good Q2 quarters will not help Uber in any way escape the trial vs google or suddenly give them a profitable business model other than let's burn through investor money and conspire to get google technology to get rid of the drivers in the not so distant future.

Semaphor 9y ago
> what prevents the now uber driver to switch to become lyft drivers ? The (non)availability of Lyft all over the world except one country. According to some quick googling, Uber exists in 80 countries without Lyft.
- pawadu 9y ago
  I think the point OP is making is that Uber doesn't really own anything outside mindshare. The drivers are after all free agents. Once the VC money used to subsidize rides dries out basically any company can challenge Uber. Which is why Uber wants to cut their dependence on drivers by using self driving cars. Then they will actually own something (the technology) in addition to the mindshare.
  - Semaphor 9y ago
    I just think that this will take possibly a very long time. Lyft wants to stay in the US and just partner with services in other countries. So new ones need to pop up and not suck (I tried a local South African one, besides no available drivers where I was, the app was absolutely horrible) AND manage to survive long enough to actually be a relevant service compared to uber.
  - rtx 9y ago
    They own the process knowledge to operate a Taxi company in 80 countries. Atleast what I have see in India they are beating OLA another competitor like Lyft.

the_mitsuhiko 9y ago

Uber in Europe stopped expanding and is very different in some places. For instance in Berlin you hail normal cabs with it.

dalbasal 9y ago

I'm in no position to guess which way winds are blowing but... I don't think uber (or lyft) will ever be totally dominant purely because of network effects. Passengers and (especially) drivers are mobile, and can switch services back and forward between apps. All you need to compete is a regional network. The global network is helpful on the margins, but an uber for Lisbon should work fine.

mstade 9y ago
Anecdata to support your point: in Stockholm the taxi companies have caught up in terms of convenience vis-à-vis apps, registering payment methods etc., to the point where I just use them rather than Uber. To me, Uber never competed on price, it was the convenience, and the competition has caught up to the point where Uber now seems clunky almost.
- mi100hael 9y ago
  Uber definitely competes on price. Their fares are almost always the lowest of any competitor, especially compared to traditional cabs. That's essentially their only strategy other than allowing mobile hailing & payment (which is not particularly hard to replicate). The reason Uber is blowing through so much venture capital is because they are bleeding cash in all directions on fare subsidies.
  - CaptainZapp 9y ago
    Are you willing to let Uber spy permanently on you in order to save a few bucks? http://www.wired.co.uk/article/uber-track-location-data-update-turn-off http://www.wired.co.uk/article/uber-track-location-data-upda...
    - doomslice 9y ago
      Not suggesting that this is the difference between it being worth it or not for an individual person, but I didn't feel like taking an Uber this time out of LAX and did a traditional cab to Pasadena -- it was $90. The Uber app quoted me at $38 and $33 if I had wanted to do pool (side note, I've ridden pool 3 times between LAX and Pasadena and not once have they ever picked up another passenger). A savings of $50 for a one way trip is definitely at the point where the "spying" is worth it for me.

bernardlunn 9y ago

Yes, another example is Wells Fargo, stock not that much affected - yet. It takes time, but consumer sentiment is eventually unstoppable like water wearing down rock

jsemrau 9y ago

This thread is about Uber, but in my opinion United will not be largely affected because they have a quasi monopoly on many routes, especially out of Newark. [1]https://futuretravel.today/united-airlines-should-go-out-of-business-325e9983e51f https://futuretravel.today/united-airlines-should-go-out-of-...

vxNsr 9y ago

It can be argued that the very significant changes United made to their training and rebooking procedures are the business impact. Just because they were able to quickly triage and come up with a workable solution I wouldn't say they weren't impacted.