6 ms·

One thing to consider (and I swear I'm not (a) claiming this is necessarily in reality the case or (b) implying that if it were we shouldn't have a "Ryan's Plac

One thing to consider (and I swear I'm not (a) claiming this is necessarily in reality the case or (b) implying that if it were we shouldn't have a "Ryan's Place") is that there is homelessness due to different causes, some of them more amenable to help than others. If someone's homeless because they were dependent on a partner who was abusive and so they left that environment and are basically a functioning member of society who nonetheless isn't on their feet, it's a whole nother story (though arguably not more tragic) than someone who's a drug addict and therefore isn't on their feet. For one of these two, a roof over their head and hot meals a couple times a day for a period of months is going to be extremely beneficial including in the long run, since they'll reliably be able to support themself thanks to the homeless shelter's infrastructure. For the other hypothetical case, it's still the right and humane thing to do for them, but the "bang for your buck" is lower to put it in crass terms. If it just works out that women outnumber men in the former group, and the gender discrimination does a huge amount of work in selecting for the most efficient candidates to keep in the shelter, I'm in favor of the discrimination.

lemonsqueeze 9y ago
Let the Matriarchy decide who is deserving of a hot cooked meal and who is "homeless enough". I puked a little, reading Amazon's announcement.
nsnick 9y ago
Why do you assume that homeless women are homeless because of abuse and not drug addiction, while homeless men are homeless because of drugs or PTSD? These assumptions seem incredibly sexist, especially in light of the fact that the current opioid crisis is affecting women disproportionately. http://www.washingtonpost.com/sf/national/2016/08/31/opiods-and-anti-anxiety-medication-are-killing-white-american-women/?utm_term=.f084d98f03c6 http://www.washingtonpost.com/sf/national/2016/08/31/opiods-...
- chad_oliver 9y ago
  He explicitly doesn't assume that: > I swear I'm not (a) claiming this is necessarily in reality the case
  - colordrops 9y ago
    What's the point of the comment then?
  - danjayh 9y ago
    and yet he goes on to say exactly that. Hey, I'm not claiming this is actually reality, but did you know that women aren't as good at their jobs as men, and that's why they get paid less?^^ Yeah, I didn't think that putting a little disclaimer at the top was really good enough. ^^ Making a point about doublespeak. I think this statement is total BS.
    - eecc 9y ago
      You're working yourself up the wrong tree... take it easy, it's not that anyone that doesn't exactly follow your very same mental model is a monster. Please
- msinclair 9y ago
  That's not really how I interpreted their message. It's more likely that a woman is homeless due to an abusive relationship than it is a man being homeless due to an abusive relationship. That isn't saying women are less likely to be homeless due to drugs. Independent statements.
  - nsnick 9y ago
    Why do you assume that domestic abuse is more often directed at women? http://time.com/2921491/hope-solo-women-violence/ http://time.com/2921491/hope-solo-women-violence/
    - discodave 9y ago
      Because it is. Here is a quote from wikipedia, from a sentence with 3 citations at the end of it: "there is a large body of cross-cultural evidence that women are subjected to domestic violence significantly more often than men." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Domestic_violence#Gender_differences https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Domestic_violence#Gender_diffe...
      - HappyTypist 9y ago
        Domestic abuse is not the same as domestic violence.
        nindalf 9y ago
        If you're going to disagree with someone, it's your responsibility to substantiate that disagreement. If that's too much of an effort, best not to say anything at all.
      - discodave 9y ago
        For anybody wondering if there is a difference between domestic abuse and domestic violence, according to the legal system, in the US, there is no clear delineation. "Although some states use the term domestic violence while others use domestic abuse, the terms describe similar conduct." http://www.criminaldefenselawyer.com/resources/criminal-defense/criminal-offense/differentiating-between-domestic-violence-abuse http://www.criminaldefenselawyer.com/resources/criminal-defe...
danjayh 9y ago
Sounds like a lot of of stereotyping with a cop-out "hey, this is the reason! (but I really don't know)" disclaimer. Got any hard data to back this up?
will4274 9y ago
That's a great point. The wikipedia article and my best Google fu seems to say that while drug addiction and lack of education is common to both genders, domestic violence and poverty from supporting children are more common causes of homelessness for women and homeless men are more likely to be mentally ill. I see that providing temporary shelter for DV victims is an easier problem than mental illness. Poverty otoh..
cabalamat 9y ago
> If it just works out that women outnumber men in the former group, and the gender discrimination does a huge amount of work in selecting for the most efficient candidates to keep in the shelter, I'm in favor of the discrimination. The way to do this is to discriminate, not on gender, but on being "basically a functioning member of society who nonetheless isn't on their feet". There are many people who think discrimination is wrong, except when it is discrimination against those they deem (wrongly) to be dominant groups in society, such as men or white people, in which case discrimination is OK. This needs to be fought against.
- geofft 9y ago
  Just to make sure I understand you right, are you claiming that men and white people are not dominant groups in American society?
  - cabalamat 9y ago
    To be specific, I am claiming: * The vast majority of men do not have positions of power or great wealth. * The vast majority of white people do not have positions of power or great wealth. * The vast majority of homeless people, regardless of their race or gender, do not have positions of power or great wealth. * White people, as a group, do not systematically oppress non-white people, preventing them from attaining power and wealth. * Men, as a group, do not systematically oppress non-male people, preventing them from attaining power and wealth.
    - JoeAltmaier 9y ago
      And yet that flies in the face of everything we have learned in the last decades. Is it just wishful thinking? Head-in-the-sand? Is the sky also not blue? Positions as incredibly implausible as that need extraordinary explanation.
    - gjm11 9y ago
      Those claims seem to me very different from -- and compatible with the negation of -- your earlier statement that it's wrong to consider "men" and "white people" dominant groups in society. Since pretty much any claim about how these things are in the real world is liable to be controversial, here's a toy example to illustrate. Imagine a world in which (1) hundreds of years ago it became, never mind why, very widely believed that men are better and cleverer and harder-working than women, (2) such beliefs are extremely resistant to change regardless of empirical evidence, and (3) as a result of the persistence of that belief, men are consistently given better jobs, paid more, regarded as more trustworthy, etc., etc., etc., than women. But, as in our world, great power and great wealth are rare, and most people whether male or female don't have them. In that world, the vast majority of men don't have great power or great wealth, and any oppressing that's going on is being done by everyone collectively; but, in that world, men are by any reasonable definition a dominant group: they are greatly overrepresented (relative to their numbers in society as a whole) among the powerful, the rich, the high-status. So, let's return to geofft's question. Everything in your list could be true without making it false that men and white people are dominant groups in American society. Do you, in addition to holding the positions in your list, further believe that they are not dominant groups? What would be your estimate for the proportion of men in the following groups in the US: (1) people with an annual income of $250k or more, (2) holders of national-level political office, (3) people with "executive" in their job title, (4) owners of businesses, (5) judges, (6) generals, (7) (full) professors, (8) religious ministers? What about the proportion of white people? I'll make my prediction: in all those groups, the fraction of both men and white people will be greater than their fraction in the population at large; in several of those groups, much greater. Do you disagree? If so, let's check. If not, why don't you think this makes men and white people "dominant groups"? (Note that "dominant" is not the same as "oppressive".)

lemonsqueeze 9y ago

Let the Matriarchy decide who is deserving of a hot cooked meal and who is "homeless enough". I puked a little, reading Amazon's announcement.

nsnick 9y ago

Why do you assume that homeless women are homeless because of abuse and not drug addiction, while homeless men are homeless because of drugs or PTSD? These assumptions seem incredibly sexist, especially in light of the fact that the current opioid crisis is affecting women disproportionately. http://www.washingtonpost.com/sf/national/2016/08/31/opiods-and-anti-anxiety-medication-are-killing-white-american-women/?utm_term=.f084d98f03c6 http://www.washingtonpost.com/sf/national/2016/08/31/opiods-...

chad_oliver 9y ago
He explicitly doesn't assume that: > I swear I'm not (a) claiming this is necessarily in reality the case
- colordrops 9y ago
  What's the point of the comment then?
- danjayh 9y ago
  and yet he goes on to say exactly that. Hey, I'm not claiming this is actually reality, but did you know that women aren't as good at their jobs as men, and that's why they get paid less?^^ Yeah, I didn't think that putting a little disclaimer at the top was really good enough. ^^ Making a point about doublespeak. I think this statement is total BS.
  - eecc 9y ago
    You're working yourself up the wrong tree... take it easy, it's not that anyone that doesn't exactly follow your very same mental model is a monster. Please
msinclair 9y ago
That's not really how I interpreted their message. It's more likely that a woman is homeless due to an abusive relationship than it is a man being homeless due to an abusive relationship. That isn't saying women are less likely to be homeless due to drugs. Independent statements.
- nsnick 9y ago
  Why do you assume that domestic abuse is more often directed at women? http://time.com/2921491/hope-solo-women-violence/ http://time.com/2921491/hope-solo-women-violence/
  - discodave 9y ago
    Because it is. Here is a quote from wikipedia, from a sentence with 3 citations at the end of it: "there is a large body of cross-cultural evidence that women are subjected to domestic violence significantly more often than men." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Domestic_violence#Gender_differences https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Domestic_violence#Gender_diffe...
    - HappyTypist 9y ago
      Domestic abuse is not the same as domestic violence.
      - nindalf 9y ago
        If you're going to disagree with someone, it's your responsibility to substantiate that disagreement. If that's too much of an effort, best not to say anything at all.
    - discodave 9y ago
      For anybody wondering if there is a difference between domestic abuse and domestic violence, according to the legal system, in the US, there is no clear delineation. "Although some states use the term domestic violence while others use domestic abuse, the terms describe similar conduct." http://www.criminaldefenselawyer.com/resources/criminal-defense/criminal-offense/differentiating-between-domestic-violence-abuse http://www.criminaldefenselawyer.com/resources/criminal-defe...

danjayh 9y ago

Sounds like a lot of of stereotyping with a cop-out "hey, this is the reason! (but I really don't know)" disclaimer. Got any hard data to back this up?

will4274 9y ago

That's a great point. The wikipedia article and my best Google fu seems to say that while drug addiction and lack of education is common to both genders, domestic violence and poverty from supporting children are more common causes of homelessness for women and homeless men are more likely to be mentally ill. I see that providing temporary shelter for DV victims is an easier problem than mental illness. Poverty otoh..

cabalamat 9y ago

> If it just works out that women outnumber men in the former group, and the gender discrimination does a huge amount of work in selecting for the most efficient candidates to keep in the shelter, I'm in favor of the discrimination. The way to do this is to discriminate, not on gender, but on being "basically a functioning member of society who nonetheless isn't on their feet". There are many people who think discrimination is wrong, except when it is discrimination against those they deem (wrongly) to be dominant groups in society, such as men or white people, in which case discrimination is OK. This needs to be fought against.

geofft 9y ago
Just to make sure I understand you right, are you claiming that men and white people are not dominant groups in American society?
- cabalamat 9y ago
  To be specific, I am claiming: * The vast majority of men do not have positions of power or great wealth. * The vast majority of white people do not have positions of power or great wealth. * The vast majority of homeless people, regardless of their race or gender, do not have positions of power or great wealth. * White people, as a group, do not systematically oppress non-white people, preventing them from attaining power and wealth. * Men, as a group, do not systematically oppress non-male people, preventing them from attaining power and wealth.
  - JoeAltmaier 9y ago
    And yet that flies in the face of everything we have learned in the last decades. Is it just wishful thinking? Head-in-the-sand? Is the sky also not blue? Positions as incredibly implausible as that need extraordinary explanation.
  - gjm11 9y ago
    Those claims seem to me very different from -- and compatible with the negation of -- your earlier statement that it's wrong to consider "men" and "white people" dominant groups in society. Since pretty much any claim about how these things are in the real world is liable to be controversial, here's a toy example to illustrate. Imagine a world in which (1) hundreds of years ago it became, never mind why, very widely believed that men are better and cleverer and harder-working than women, (2) such beliefs are extremely resistant to change regardless of empirical evidence, and (3) as a result of the persistence of that belief, men are consistently given better jobs, paid more, regarded as more trustworthy, etc., etc., etc., than women. But, as in our world, great power and great wealth are rare, and most people whether male or female don't have them. In that world, the vast majority of men don't have great power or great wealth, and any oppressing that's going on is being done by everyone collectively; but, in that world, men are by any reasonable definition a dominant group: they are greatly overrepresented (relative to their numbers in society as a whole) among the powerful, the rich, the high-status. So, let's return to geofft's question. Everything in your list could be true without making it false that men and white people are dominant groups in American society. Do you, in addition to holding the positions in your list, further believe that they are not dominant groups? What would be your estimate for the proportion of men in the following groups in the US: (1) people with an annual income of $250k or more, (2) holders of national-level political office, (3) people with "executive" in their job title, (4) owners of businesses, (5) judges, (6) generals, (7) (full) professors, (8) religious ministers? What about the proportion of white people? I'll make my prediction: in all those groups, the fraction of both men and white people will be greater than their fraction in the population at large; in several of those groups, much greater. Do you disagree? If so, let's check. If not, why don't you think this makes men and white people "dominant groups"? (Note that "dominant" is not the same as "oppressive".)