9 ms·

An investigation into the economics of airplane seat reclining

54 points by Hooke 9y ago

Markoff 9y ago
TLDR ask person in front of you not recline and compensate them with drink or other small gift and most likely they will accept it even without the gift
- notyourwork 9y ago
  What is this blasphemy of treating humans like humans. It is crazy how many overly dramatic articles and situations could probably be resolved by simply civil dialog and discussion.
  - Arizhel 9y ago
    Because about half the time the response is extremely uncivil, so people are afraid to try the civil approach. So people do just as you say: treat humans like humans. Since humans are largely evil, that results in the behavior we see.
    - ghaff 9y ago
      It's not that humans are largely evil but about asking people to be less comfortable based on your own preference. Don't recline. Move to a non-preferred seat so I can sit next to my girlfriend. Etc. In some cases this may be reasonable but they're the sort of negotiation I prefer not to get into on a Plane where you're implicitly the bad guy if you say no.
      - Markoff 9y ago
        it's not about my preference if you hit me with your reclined seat it's like saying I am making smoker less comfortable based on my own preference that I wanna breathe clean air, he is disrupting clean enviroment, you are disrupting good relations by reclining, I have no problem to not recline for person behind me, because once you do it everyone behind you have to do it to gain a little space the first person who started these selfishly took
        sanswork 9y ago
        It's not like that at all in this case the person in front of you has paid for that space you are occupying. It was never your space to begin with.
        Markoff 9y ago
        no, you buy seat with space for your legs, if someone is taking my space for legs he is taking something I paid for they paid for space in front of their seat up to back of the seat in front of them
        sanswork 9y ago
        They paid for the space taken up when the seat reclined if your legs don't fit in that space they you need to buy another seat or pressure airlines to start better serving people of your size. It's not the person in front of you who is at fault it is everyone that has ever done a ticket search and sorted from lowest price to highest.
        Markoff 9y ago
        i am no special person, i am pretty skinny so they have low fuel expenses on me compared to some short fat people and i have no problem to travel with reasonable polite people who won't recline seat for someone much taller seeing behind them but ok, let's stop being polite and charge people per kg of weight if we do this already with baggage, at least fat people will have motivation to stop eating, not sure what unhealthy i did that i grew tall and should handle ignorant people reclining seats
        sanswork 9y ago
        There is nothing impolite about using a space you paid for. I don't see how charging by weight would improve your situation any. You're still trying to fly in a seat that doesn't fit your body.
    - notyourwork 9y ago
      Is it evil or selfish? I think selfishness can be perceived as evil but I don't think people are intentionally evil to others. I think humans are inherently selfish which makes other's feel as though one's actions are evil. "Treat humans like humans" also is defined based on where and how you were raised.
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tgb 9y ago
For anyone who dislikes recliners - in what manner does it inconvenience you? For me, it's not useful space that is taken up, except perhaps transiently as I squeeze past my neighbours to get to the aisle. My knees are below the point that reclines. Are laptops the problem?
- molsongolden 9y ago
  I have had people recline right onto my knees then continue pushing back when the seat stops moving. Some planes are much worse than others wrt knee space though. I am also a few inches over six foot. Reclined seats can also make laptop use difficult and some people don't check what is going on behind them before blasting their seat backwards which can be disastrous if you have a drink on your tray at that moment. I love to recline my seat and stretch out a little but I rarely do so since it is so annoying to the next person. The only time I recline is on long-haul flights when the lights are out and I can see that the person behind me is clearly sleeping. Even in this situation, I recline just enough to give myself some lower-back relief.
- alistairSH 9y ago
  Agreed. Except for the VERY long-legged, a reclined seat-back in front doesn't remove leg space. It pivots at/above knee level and simply pivots marginally closer to me. I have never had a reclined seat obstruct my view of the entertainment screen or make me tray unusable. On the other side, I don't recline the seat to create more space for myself. I recline it to alleviate discomfort from the absurdly upright default seat position.
  - WkndTriathlete 9y ago
    What? The seat pivots below knee level by definition, unless you've found a plane where the base of the seat slopes down from the back to the front. (Since the seat is level or slopes slightly upward from back to front then the pivot point is at the back of the base of the seat. Since the legs are sitting on - i.e. above - the seat, then the knees have to be above the pivot point and reclining does indeed remove leg space.) Disclaimer: I'm over 6' with long femurs and have had exactly this situation happen to me on a flight. When the person in front of me reclines my legs do not fit in the remaining space, even if I'm sitting all the way back in my seat. I understand the economic rationale airlines have for separate seat classes, but at the same time that rationale irritates me because I end up having to pay more for something that is entirely out of my control (genetics).
pklausler 9y ago
I'm happy to not recline my seat when I'm sitting in steerage, unless the human sitting in front of me reclines. So it's not about making a deal with whomever sits before you; instead, it's about making a deal with everybody in your column and lower row number, at least up to an exit row. All it takes is one recliner to ruin it for everybody.
- ouid 9y ago
  such is the efficiency of markets.
- supergeek133 9y ago
  Exactly. Numerous times over the past two years as I've traveled more for work I've had to out loud say the phrase: "We're all in this together".
  - hueving 9y ago
    Who did you say that to? If it was to the person in front of you, you're being an asshole. Just recline your seat or deal with the reduced space in front of you. If you want more room between you and the seat in front of you, pay for it. Don't try to guilt the person in front of you to make their own flight uncomfortable for sleeping to please you. That's selfish.
    - supergeek133 9y ago
      Take it easy. I've said that to numerous people. I never say that to people in front of me who recline. I deal with it like everyone else does. The most recent time was during one of the computer outages, someone tried to cut in front of everyone to check a bag. I just calmly said that we're all in this delay together, we all have places to be, and it's nobody's fault at this counter. So just wait like the rest of us. I actually don't get into conflicts with air travel, but for some reason it triggers others instantly.
braymundo 9y ago
Flying without reclining my seat is pure torture to me. I find the default vertical position of the seats deeply uncomfortable. What if all seats had a slightly reclined angle already?
- tutufan 9y ago
  Flying in a reclined seat is pure torture to me.
  - Jach 9y ago
    Flying is pure torture to me (being tall).
    - douche 9y ago
      Try being tall and wide... A frame that's great for setting picks in a basketball game is less than ideal in a narrow coach seat, especially on the aisle...
  - cbanek 9y ago
    What if we grouped the plane into two sections: those who want to recline, and those who do not? If you're a recliner behind a recliner, happy. If you're a non-recliner behind a non-recliner, happy. Split on the exit row, or hopefully at least one row of people who don't care.
    - extra88 9y ago
      Not everyone flies alone and not everyone who flies together has the same preferences for reclining their seat.
    - tutufan 9y ago
      It's not a terrible idea. Economics requires, though, that the flying experience be made awful enough on average that customers are just barely willing to fly, versus their best alternative.
    - 9y ago
woliveirajr 9y ago
If you suffer from lumbar (or any other region) pain in your column, reclining or not is a huge difference. I never had problems about knees getting closer or not, etc., but having suffered from lumbar pain for a part of my life, I can assure you that reclining or not has a big impact. No, it doesn't mean that pain -> need to recline. Sometimes it gets better keeping it straight, sometimes you get relief when you recline. The advantage was to have the option to choose it at every travel, or during the travel. As options get limited, so was my pleasure getting lower.
- UnoriginalGuy 9y ago
  > I never had problems about knees getting closer or not But other people do, that's the point. I'm only 6'1 but with long legs, if someone reclines in front they're literally on top of my knees the entire flight. When turbulence occurs they bounce up and down on my knees. I try to book exit rows and Economy+ when budget allows, but for all other times I take painkillers and just have to let my knees get damaged by the 4' woman in front of me who's comfort is more important than my pain.
  - mrep 9y ago
    So should the smallest/cheapest seat be designed for shaq to sit in it? Why should smaller people be forced to pay for bigger seats that they do not need?
    - Markoff 9y ago
      the seats are fine, reclining is not and should be removed completely
  - hueving 9y ago
    That's not her problem, it's yours. If you can't fit in the seat in the different possible configurations, you need to pay extra or not fly.
joncp 9y ago
Have I been on different airlines than these people who fight? In my experience airline seat backs pivot at a point somewhere around knee height, so reclining a seat doesn't affect legroom at all. When the person in front of me reclines it tilts my laptop monitor a little but that's it.
- electrichead 9y ago
  I guess so. Every flight I've been on has made it uncomfortable for me if the person in front is reclining. The angle makes my laptop have to open less than 90 degrees (15"). The incline also has to begin below the knee (ie. at the base of your seat) because the seat is horizontal and seats are at the same level. My knees usually touch the seat in front so I have to spread my legs awkwardly when the recline happens.
- fivestar 9y ago
  It has to me--I have long femurs and the tight seats are already bad enough. When someone reclines, I am that much worse off. I usually sit in a "V" as much as possible or get an aisle seat so that one leg can stretch into the aisle sometimes. Honestly, I'm pretty much done with flying until such time as airlines come to grips with their management problems.
dandare 9y ago
The whole situation is ridiculous - the airlines clearly know if they sold you the right to recline or not, if they only stopped being so damn ambiguous about the rules there would be no fights.
- ghaff 9y ago
  What's ambiguous? Airlines let you recline except during takeoff and landing. However, various people argue that just because you can doesn't mean you should.
bspn 9y ago
I have only had an issue with a reclining seat once before. It was a transatlantic flight on a horribly old 767 and the gentlemen in front of me reclined (at speed) and then turned around and ordered me to get my knees out of his back as though I could miraculously make myself a few inches shorter. My row mates and I had a good laugh about it and I resolved to only fly premium economy for flights of any meaningful length in the future.
e2e4 9y ago
I think this problem has been at least partially solved with the slide forward to recline seats; e.g.: "One product from Zodiac is the 5751 slimline economy class seat. This particular model of seat uses a unique recline mechanism where the seat bucket moves forward while reclining." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zodiac_Seats_U.S https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zodiac_Seats_U.S. here is an example of the seat: http://downloads.cathaypacific.com/cx/new_seat/seatguide/Olympus_y.pdf http://downloads.cathaypacific.com/cx/new_seat/seatguide/Oly... p.s. on international 8+ hours flights resting/sleeping without reclining is challenging ...
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54 points by Hooke 9y ago

TLDR ask person in front of you not recline and compensate them with drink or other small gift and most likely they will accept it even without the gift

notyourwork 9y ago
What is this blasphemy of treating humans like humans. It is crazy how many overly dramatic articles and situations could probably be resolved by simply civil dialog and discussion.
- Arizhel 9y ago
  Because about half the time the response is extremely uncivil, so people are afraid to try the civil approach. So people do just as you say: treat humans like humans. Since humans are largely evil, that results in the behavior we see.
  - ghaff 9y ago
    It's not that humans are largely evil but about asking people to be less comfortable based on your own preference. Don't recline. Move to a non-preferred seat so I can sit next to my girlfriend. Etc. In some cases this may be reasonable but they're the sort of negotiation I prefer not to get into on a Plane where you're implicitly the bad guy if you say no.
    - Markoff 9y ago
      it's not about my preference if you hit me with your reclined seat it's like saying I am making smoker less comfortable based on my own preference that I wanna breathe clean air, he is disrupting clean enviroment, you are disrupting good relations by reclining, I have no problem to not recline for person behind me, because once you do it everyone behind you have to do it to gain a little space the first person who started these selfishly took
      - sanswork 9y ago
        It's not like that at all in this case the person in front of you has paid for that space you are occupying. It was never your space to begin with.
        Markoff 9y ago
        no, you buy seat with space for your legs, if someone is taking my space for legs he is taking something I paid for they paid for space in front of their seat up to back of the seat in front of them
        sanswork 9y ago
        They paid for the space taken up when the seat reclined if your legs don't fit in that space they you need to buy another seat or pressure airlines to start better serving people of your size. It's not the person in front of you who is at fault it is everyone that has ever done a ticket search and sorted from lowest price to highest.
        Markoff 9y ago
        i am no special person, i am pretty skinny so they have low fuel expenses on me compared to some short fat people and i have no problem to travel with reasonable polite people who won't recline seat for someone much taller seeing behind them but ok, let's stop being polite and charge people per kg of weight if we do this already with baggage, at least fat people will have motivation to stop eating, not sure what unhealthy i did that i grew tall and should handle ignorant people reclining seats
        sanswork 9y ago
        There is nothing impolite about using a space you paid for. I don't see how charging by weight would improve your situation any. You're still trying to fly in a seat that doesn't fit your body.
  - notyourwork 9y ago
    Is it evil or selfish? I think selfishness can be perceived as evil but I don't think people are intentionally evil to others. I think humans are inherently selfish which makes other's feel as though one's actions are evil. "Treat humans like humans" also is defined based on where and how you were raised.

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tgb 9y ago

For anyone who dislikes recliners - in what manner does it inconvenience you? For me, it's not useful space that is taken up, except perhaps transiently as I squeeze past my neighbours to get to the aisle. My knees are below the point that reclines. Are laptops the problem?

molsongolden 9y ago
I have had people recline right onto my knees then continue pushing back when the seat stops moving. Some planes are much worse than others wrt knee space though. I am also a few inches over six foot. Reclined seats can also make laptop use difficult and some people don't check what is going on behind them before blasting their seat backwards which can be disastrous if you have a drink on your tray at that moment. I love to recline my seat and stretch out a little but I rarely do so since it is so annoying to the next person. The only time I recline is on long-haul flights when the lights are out and I can see that the person behind me is clearly sleeping. Even in this situation, I recline just enough to give myself some lower-back relief.
alistairSH 9y ago
Agreed. Except for the VERY long-legged, a reclined seat-back in front doesn't remove leg space. It pivots at/above knee level and simply pivots marginally closer to me. I have never had a reclined seat obstruct my view of the entertainment screen or make me tray unusable. On the other side, I don't recline the seat to create more space for myself. I recline it to alleviate discomfort from the absurdly upright default seat position.
- WkndTriathlete 9y ago
  What? The seat pivots below knee level by definition, unless you've found a plane where the base of the seat slopes down from the back to the front. (Since the seat is level or slopes slightly upward from back to front then the pivot point is at the back of the base of the seat. Since the legs are sitting on - i.e. above - the seat, then the knees have to be above the pivot point and reclining does indeed remove leg space.) Disclaimer: I'm over 6' with long femurs and have had exactly this situation happen to me on a flight. When the person in front of me reclines my legs do not fit in the remaining space, even if I'm sitting all the way back in my seat. I understand the economic rationale airlines have for separate seat classes, but at the same time that rationale irritates me because I end up having to pay more for something that is entirely out of my control (genetics).

pklausler 9y ago

I'm happy to not recline my seat when I'm sitting in steerage, unless the human sitting in front of me reclines. So it's not about making a deal with whomever sits before you; instead, it's about making a deal with everybody in your column and lower row number, at least up to an exit row. All it takes is one recliner to ruin it for everybody.

ouid 9y ago
such is the efficiency of markets.
supergeek133 9y ago
Exactly. Numerous times over the past two years as I've traveled more for work I've had to out loud say the phrase: "We're all in this together".
- hueving 9y ago
  Who did you say that to? If it was to the person in front of you, you're being an asshole. Just recline your seat or deal with the reduced space in front of you. If you want more room between you and the seat in front of you, pay for it. Don't try to guilt the person in front of you to make their own flight uncomfortable for sleeping to please you. That's selfish.
  - supergeek133 9y ago
    Take it easy. I've said that to numerous people. I never say that to people in front of me who recline. I deal with it like everyone else does. The most recent time was during one of the computer outages, someone tried to cut in front of everyone to check a bag. I just calmly said that we're all in this delay together, we all have places to be, and it's nobody's fault at this counter. So just wait like the rest of us. I actually don't get into conflicts with air travel, but for some reason it triggers others instantly.

braymundo 9y ago

Flying without reclining my seat is pure torture to me. I find the default vertical position of the seats deeply uncomfortable. What if all seats had a slightly reclined angle already?

tutufan 9y ago
Flying in a reclined seat is pure torture to me.
- Jach 9y ago
  Flying is pure torture to me (being tall).
  - douche 9y ago
    Try being tall and wide... A frame that's great for setting picks in a basketball game is less than ideal in a narrow coach seat, especially on the aisle...
- cbanek 9y ago
  What if we grouped the plane into two sections: those who want to recline, and those who do not? If you're a recliner behind a recliner, happy. If you're a non-recliner behind a non-recliner, happy. Split on the exit row, or hopefully at least one row of people who don't care.
  - extra88 9y ago
    Not everyone flies alone and not everyone who flies together has the same preferences for reclining their seat.
  - tutufan 9y ago
    It's not a terrible idea. Economics requires, though, that the flying experience be made awful enough on average that customers are just barely willing to fly, versus their best alternative.
  - 9y ago

woliveirajr 9y ago

If you suffer from lumbar (or any other region) pain in your column, reclining or not is a huge difference. I never had problems about knees getting closer or not, etc., but having suffered from lumbar pain for a part of my life, I can assure you that reclining or not has a big impact. No, it doesn't mean that pain -> need to recline. Sometimes it gets better keeping it straight, sometimes you get relief when you recline. The advantage was to have the option to choose it at every travel, or during the travel. As options get limited, so was my pleasure getting lower.

UnoriginalGuy 9y ago
> I never had problems about knees getting closer or not But other people do, that's the point. I'm only 6'1 but with long legs, if someone reclines in front they're literally on top of my knees the entire flight. When turbulence occurs they bounce up and down on my knees. I try to book exit rows and Economy+ when budget allows, but for all other times I take painkillers and just have to let my knees get damaged by the 4' woman in front of me who's comfort is more important than my pain.
- mrep 9y ago
  So should the smallest/cheapest seat be designed for shaq to sit in it? Why should smaller people be forced to pay for bigger seats that they do not need?
  - Markoff 9y ago
    the seats are fine, reclining is not and should be removed completely
- hueving 9y ago
  That's not her problem, it's yours. If you can't fit in the seat in the different possible configurations, you need to pay extra or not fly.

joncp 9y ago

Have I been on different airlines than these people who fight? In my experience airline seat backs pivot at a point somewhere around knee height, so reclining a seat doesn't affect legroom at all. When the person in front of me reclines it tilts my laptop monitor a little but that's it.

electrichead 9y ago
I guess so. Every flight I've been on has made it uncomfortable for me if the person in front is reclining. The angle makes my laptop have to open less than 90 degrees (15"). The incline also has to begin below the knee (ie. at the base of your seat) because the seat is horizontal and seats are at the same level. My knees usually touch the seat in front so I have to spread my legs awkwardly when the recline happens.
fivestar 9y ago
It has to me--I have long femurs and the tight seats are already bad enough. When someone reclines, I am that much worse off. I usually sit in a "V" as much as possible or get an aisle seat so that one leg can stretch into the aisle sometimes. Honestly, I'm pretty much done with flying until such time as airlines come to grips with their management problems.

dandare 9y ago

The whole situation is ridiculous - the airlines clearly know if they sold you the right to recline or not, if they only stopped being so damn ambiguous about the rules there would be no fights.

ghaff 9y ago
What's ambiguous? Airlines let you recline except during takeoff and landing. However, various people argue that just because you can doesn't mean you should.

bspn 9y ago

I have only had an issue with a reclining seat once before. It was a transatlantic flight on a horribly old 767 and the gentlemen in front of me reclined (at speed) and then turned around and ordered me to get my knees out of his back as though I could miraculously make myself a few inches shorter. My row mates and I had a good laugh about it and I resolved to only fly premium economy for flights of any meaningful length in the future.

e2e4 9y ago

I think this problem has been at least partially solved with the slide forward to recline seats; e.g.: "One product from Zodiac is the 5751 slimline economy class seat. This particular model of seat uses a unique recline mechanism where the seat bucket moves forward while reclining." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zodiac_Seats_U.S https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zodiac_Seats_U.S. here is an example of the seat: http://downloads.cathaypacific.com/cx/new_seat/seatguide/Olympus_y.pdf http://downloads.cathaypacific.com/cx/new_seat/seatguide/Oly... p.s. on international 8+ hours flights resting/sleeping without reclining is challenging ...

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