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> I'd like to see more fathers as primary caregivers I'd like to see moms and dads choosing who the primary caregiver will be in their own families. I don't se

> I'd like to see more fathers as primary caregivers I'd like to see moms and dads choosing who the primary caregiver will be in their own families. I don't see why it's the business of government programs, Hacker News commenters, "society" or anybody else. I identified as a feminist when feminism was about correcting obvious inequalities between the sexes. Nowadays it seems to be more about behavioral engineering and how we can coerce people to behave in a manner which matches our definition of a perfect society. I no longer identify as a feminist.

deleted 9y ago
[deleted]
rayiner 9y ago
Feminism is about behavioral engineering because we live in a winner-take-all society, and even sexism that falls short of "obvious inequalities" can hold people back dramatically. We live in a world where it's just easier for couples to have the woman be the primary caregiver, because of social pressures. Every school, doctor, etc. has my wife and I write down our work numbers. Nobody ever calls me first. I did the entire application process for my daughter's pre-K, and they still called my wife first to remind us to submit the enrollment contract. Merely not leaving your family makes you an above median father in society's eyes. But god forbid you're a mother who doesn't think it's a priority to shuffle your kid from activity to activity all week.
- qb45 9y ago
  > it's just easier for couples to have the woman be the primary caregiver Yes Sherlock, it is. > Every school, doctor, etc. has my wife and I write down our work numbers. Nobody ever calls me first. Complain to them, not HN. Maybe they could add a note to call you. > I did the entire application process for my daughter's pre-K, and they still called my wife first You are not a special snowflake, how many other parents do they have?
  - sctb 9y ago
    Comments on Hacker News should say something besides being just personally rude. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
    - qb45 9y ago
      It did say something, though maybe in a way which was apparently too personally rude.
wcummings 9y ago
>Nowadays it seems to be more about behavioral engineering and how we can coerce people to behave in a manner which matches our definition of a perfect society. I haven't noticed this, are you sure it's not your attitude that's changed, not society?
- qb45 9y ago
  For example, TFA talks about adjusting seemingly unrelated parameters like working hours to exert influence on gender parity benchmarks. Not that I think working hours aren't too long, considering modern technology, but that's another story.
panic 9y ago
I think OP is just saying that being a male primary caregiver, or supporting other men who are, is one way to help with this problem. I'm not sure where the coercion is -- what's the threat being made?
- VarFarYonder 9y ago
  > I think OP is just saying that being a male primary caregiver, or supporting other men who are, is one way to help with this problem. I'm not sure where the coercion is -- what's the threat being made? I don't think there is a threat, but it does ignore the fact that men and women are different. For example, men tend to be more competitive, negotiate harder for pay rises. Women tend to like more flexibility in their work. Some of us think that the fact that there are fewer male primary caregivers isn't a problem to be solved, but natural given the natural preferences of men and women in general. I think there are many more women than men working in pre-school education for a reason. Furthermore, many women are made to feel ashamed of their desire to be housewives, think it is some failing on their part, and end up seeking a life-consuming career -- not because they want to, but because society tells them they should.
  - deleted 9y ago
    [deleted]
  - rayiner 9y ago
    > I don't think there is a threat, but it does ignore the fact that men and women are different. For example, men tend to be more competitive, negotiate harder for pay rises. Women tend to like more flexibility in their work. How much of that is that we (1) socialize women to be that way; and (2) impose disproportionate parenting obligations on them to begin with, which causes them to seek more flexibility?
    - dionidium 9y ago
      This question is what's at bottom of this entire discussion. I'm guessing you think socialization is the overriding factor. Others attribute the majority of the differences to nature. Everything that's been said in this thread follows from each commenter's position on this question.
mjburgess 9y ago
Trying to persuade people to live differently is not "behaviour engineering", it's how all social change occurs. Society is just people's attitudes and behaviours wrt. each other. It seems like all you're saying is, "I supported feminism when things i didn't like were criticized. Now things I dont care about are criticised, I don't like it."
moomin 9y ago
Forget the feminism, there's documented problems with your approach in general. You're assuming local optimisation leads to a global maximum (or not caring whether it does), whilst any entrepreneur can tell you that's false.

deleted 9y ago

[deleted]

rayiner 9y ago

Feminism is about behavioral engineering because we live in a winner-take-all society, and even sexism that falls short of "obvious inequalities" can hold people back dramatically. We live in a world where it's just easier for couples to have the woman be the primary caregiver, because of social pressures. Every school, doctor, etc. has my wife and I write down our work numbers. Nobody ever calls me first. I did the entire application process for my daughter's pre-K, and they still called my wife first to remind us to submit the enrollment contract. Merely not leaving your family makes you an above median father in society's eyes. But god forbid you're a mother who doesn't think it's a priority to shuffle your kid from activity to activity all week.

qb45 9y ago
> it's just easier for couples to have the woman be the primary caregiver Yes Sherlock, it is. > Every school, doctor, etc. has my wife and I write down our work numbers. Nobody ever calls me first. Complain to them, not HN. Maybe they could add a note to call you. > I did the entire application process for my daughter's pre-K, and they still called my wife first You are not a special snowflake, how many other parents do they have?
- sctb 9y ago
  Comments on Hacker News should say something besides being just personally rude. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
  - qb45 9y ago
    It did say something, though maybe in a way which was apparently too personally rude.

wcummings 9y ago

>Nowadays it seems to be more about behavioral engineering and how we can coerce people to behave in a manner which matches our definition of a perfect society. I haven't noticed this, are you sure it's not your attitude that's changed, not society?

qb45 9y ago
For example, TFA talks about adjusting seemingly unrelated parameters like working hours to exert influence on gender parity benchmarks. Not that I think working hours aren't too long, considering modern technology, but that's another story.

panic 9y ago

I think OP is just saying that being a male primary caregiver, or supporting other men who are, is one way to help with this problem. I'm not sure where the coercion is -- what's the threat being made?

VarFarYonder 9y ago
> I think OP is just saying that being a male primary caregiver, or supporting other men who are, is one way to help with this problem. I'm not sure where the coercion is -- what's the threat being made? I don't think there is a threat, but it does ignore the fact that men and women are different. For example, men tend to be more competitive, negotiate harder for pay rises. Women tend to like more flexibility in their work. Some of us think that the fact that there are fewer male primary caregivers isn't a problem to be solved, but natural given the natural preferences of men and women in general. I think there are many more women than men working in pre-school education for a reason. Furthermore, many women are made to feel ashamed of their desire to be housewives, think it is some failing on their part, and end up seeking a life-consuming career -- not because they want to, but because society tells them they should.
- deleted 9y ago
  [deleted]
- rayiner 9y ago
  > I don't think there is a threat, but it does ignore the fact that men and women are different. For example, men tend to be more competitive, negotiate harder for pay rises. Women tend to like more flexibility in their work. How much of that is that we (1) socialize women to be that way; and (2) impose disproportionate parenting obligations on them to begin with, which causes them to seek more flexibility?
  - dionidium 9y ago
    This question is what's at bottom of this entire discussion. I'm guessing you think socialization is the overriding factor. Others attribute the majority of the differences to nature. Everything that's been said in this thread follows from each commenter's position on this question.

mjburgess 9y ago

Trying to persuade people to live differently is not "behaviour engineering", it's how all social change occurs. Society is just people's attitudes and behaviours wrt. each other. It seems like all you're saying is, "I supported feminism when things i didn't like were criticized. Now things I dont care about are criticised, I don't like it."

moomin 9y ago

Forget the feminism, there's documented problems with your approach in general. You're assuming local optimisation leads to a global maximum (or not caring whether it does), whilst any entrepreneur can tell you that's false.