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The gender wage gap does exist. It's simply a fact that women earn less than men. The real question then, is why. Is it because sexist managers pay women less m

by joycey 9y ago

The gender wage gap does exist. It's simply a fact that women earn less than men. The real question then, is why. Is it because sexist managers pay women less money than men? Are women less likely to negotiate their offers as aggressively as men? Do women on average have to work longer to get promoted (and consequently earn salary raises) and why does this happen? Is it because women are more likely to pursue careers that pay less? Is it because men are seen as more attractive when their income goes up but this doesn't hold true for women? Are women and men just biologically inclined to pursue different career paths? Does the wage gap exist because women are more likely to work part-time? Is it because women are more likely to choose to prioritize child-rearing over their career? Is it because society expects women to prioritize motherhood? Is it because managers pay women less because they assume women will be less committed to their career? Some of these possible reasons are obviously more concerning than others. If the gender wage gap is 100% due to less concerning reasons, such as women simply making the choice to prioritize motherhood over their career, then you could argue that while the gender gap exists it's not a societal problem that we need to address since it's not caused by institutional discrimination of any sort. The reality is a lot more complicated and nuanced, and it's probable that there are several reasons that can explain the gender gap, that don't necessarily compete with each other.

lwansbrough 9y ago
All of those are important questions, but I think it's also important to prefix "gender wage gap" with the words "adjusted" or "unadjusted" in order to identify which problem you're talking about. All of those questions will fit into one of those two categories, and the arguments for each vary wildly. Unadjusted (~78% [1]) wage gap deals more with society's impact on a woman's wage, or a woman's intrinsic desire to pursue a career in a particular field, whereas adjusted wage gap (5-8% [1]) deals more with factors like sexism and the economic impact of hiring a woman. In my opinion, it would be worth while to tackle the adjusted wage gap in the short term, and the unadjusted wage gap in the long term, as the latter requires more dramatic changes in society, I think. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender_pay_gap https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender_pay_gap
fsaneq2 9y ago
The problem is that the way the issue is (intentionally, I'm sure) presented is with charged phrases like "for every dollar a man makes, a woman only makes X cents". To a reasonable person, that sounds like it implies "for the same work" -- otherwise, you're comparing apples to oranges, so they must not mean that, the reasonable person thinks. And so the reasonable person gets (rightfully) angry and it becomes a very emotional issue, even though it was based on deception. In that sense, what most people imagine when someone says "wage gap" doesn't exist.
syshum 9y ago
>>The gender wage gap does exist. It's simply a fact that women earn less than men. Not for the same work it does not. When you actually look at the data the vast majority of the so called gap is directly attributable to field of work. Right or wrong Teaching, Social Work,Child Care and Nursing pay less than Executives, Programming, STEM Fields, etc. There is now more than ever more opportunities for women to enter these higher paying fields, many many many still choose not to. Do you advocate for forcing Women into STEM vocation against their will?
- DanBC 9y ago
  > Right or wrong Teaching, Social Work,Child Care and Nursing pay less than Executives, Programming, STEM Fields, etc But when we only look at nursing we still see a gender pay gap. When you look at nursing, specifically midwifery (surely the most feminised sector of nursing) we see that at lower pay bands the ratio of men:women is almost no men to almost all women. As we go up the pay bands we see that ratio changing. We see this for many different types of health care staff. Ambulance workers start with a 60:40 male:female ratio at the lower bands, and end up at band 8d with a 95:5 male female ratio. So, for the English NHS when we only look at eg midwifery (we see it when we look at other HSCS staff too) we still see a gender pay gap. Have a look at the English statistics here: http://content.digital.nhs.uk/article/2021/Website-Search?productid=23815 http://content.digital.nhs.uk/article/2021/Website-Search?pr... NHS Workforce Statistics - September 2016, Provisional statistics Publication date: December 20, 2016 We want this file: HCHS staff in NHS Trusts and CCGs in England, Equality and Diversity, September 2016 [.xlsx] Hospital and Community Health Services Staff statistics. Midwives Payband Men Women Total Ratio men:women Band 5 11 2301 2312 0.00:1.00 Band 6 57 18294 18351 0.00:1.00 Band 7 36 4663 4699 0.01:0.99 Band 8a 2 183 185 0.01:0.99 Band 8b 1 31 32 0.03:0.97 Band 8c 2 15 17 0.12:0.88 Here's the table for Ambulance staff. Ambulance staff payband men women total ratio men:women Band 4 2222 1479 3701 0.60:0.40 Band 5 5986 4072 10058 0.60:0.40 Band 6 3553 1889 5442 0.65:0.35 Band 7 610 202 812 0.75:0.25 Band 8a 85 25 110 0.77:0.23 Band 8b 49 10 59 0.83:0.17 Band 8c 14 1 15 0.93:0.07 Band 8d 14 1 15 0.93:0.07
  - chippy 9y ago
jecjec 9y ago
I totally reject your frame of "women earn less than men." Mainly because 'earnings' are not the only thing people should be measured by. They should probably be the LAST. Women do productive things that are harder to account for in standard GDP metrics. Does GDP count the implied value of rearing a child? The years of care that go into motherhood? Does GDP go up $40 when a mom teaches a young child some words for an hour? It would if it was a tutor but it doesn't when it's just a parent. The frame of "women earn less than men" is used to implicitly degrade the life choices of women. I personally just learned that a friend's mom is a foster mother. That is an incredible level of generosity that is outside of my comprehension. Is her being a foster mother worthless because it isn't in wage statistics? She earns a modest income by accounting standards, but the actual value she creates is much higher. Should we tell her to learn to code instead?

by joycey 9y ago

lwansbrough 9y ago

All of those are important questions, but I think it's also important to prefix "gender wage gap" with the words "adjusted" or "unadjusted" in order to identify which problem you're talking about. All of those questions will fit into one of those two categories, and the arguments for each vary wildly. Unadjusted (~78% [1]) wage gap deals more with society's impact on a woman's wage, or a woman's intrinsic desire to pursue a career in a particular field, whereas adjusted wage gap (5-8% [1]) deals more with factors like sexism and the economic impact of hiring a woman. In my opinion, it would be worth while to tackle the adjusted wage gap in the short term, and the unadjusted wage gap in the long term, as the latter requires more dramatic changes in society, I think. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender_pay_gap https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender_pay_gap

fsaneq2 9y ago

The problem is that the way the issue is (intentionally, I'm sure) presented is with charged phrases like "for every dollar a man makes, a woman only makes X cents". To a reasonable person, that sounds like it implies "for the same work" -- otherwise, you're comparing apples to oranges, so they must not mean that, the reasonable person thinks. And so the reasonable person gets (rightfully) angry and it becomes a very emotional issue, even though it was based on deception. In that sense, what most people imagine when someone says "wage gap" doesn't exist.

syshum 9y ago

>>The gender wage gap does exist. It's simply a fact that women earn less than men. Not for the same work it does not. When you actually look at the data the vast majority of the so called gap is directly attributable to field of work. Right or wrong Teaching, Social Work,Child Care and Nursing pay less than Executives, Programming, STEM Fields, etc. There is now more than ever more opportunities for women to enter these higher paying fields, many many many still choose not to. Do you advocate for forcing Women into STEM vocation against their will?

DanBC 9y ago
> Right or wrong Teaching, Social Work,Child Care and Nursing pay less than Executives, Programming, STEM Fields, etc But when we only look at nursing we still see a gender pay gap. When you look at nursing, specifically midwifery (surely the most feminised sector of nursing) we see that at lower pay bands the ratio of men:women is almost no men to almost all women. As we go up the pay bands we see that ratio changing. We see this for many different types of health care staff. Ambulance workers start with a 60:40 male:female ratio at the lower bands, and end up at band 8d with a 95:5 male female ratio. So, for the English NHS when we only look at eg midwifery (we see it when we look at other HSCS staff too) we still see a gender pay gap. Have a look at the English statistics here: http://content.digital.nhs.uk/article/2021/Website-Search?productid=23815 http://content.digital.nhs.uk/article/2021/Website-Search?pr... NHS Workforce Statistics - September 2016, Provisional statistics Publication date: December 20, 2016 We want this file: HCHS staff in NHS Trusts and CCGs in England, Equality and Diversity, September 2016 [.xlsx] Hospital and Community Health Services Staff statistics. Midwives Payband Men Women Total Ratio men:women Band 5 11 2301 2312 0.00:1.00 Band 6 57 18294 18351 0.00:1.00 Band 7 36 4663 4699 0.01:0.99 Band 8a 2 183 185 0.01:0.99 Band 8b 1 31 32 0.03:0.97 Band 8c 2 15 17 0.12:0.88 Here's the table for Ambulance staff. Ambulance staff payband men women total ratio men:women Band 4 2222 1479 3701 0.60:0.40 Band 5 5986 4072 10058 0.60:0.40 Band 6 3553 1889 5442 0.65:0.35 Band 7 610 202 812 0.75:0.25 Band 8a 85 25 110 0.77:0.23 Band 8b 49 10 59 0.83:0.17 Band 8c 14 1 15 0.93:0.07 Band 8d 14 1 15 0.93:0.07
- chippy 9y ago

jecjec 9y ago

I totally reject your frame of "women earn less than men." Mainly because 'earnings' are not the only thing people should be measured by. They should probably be the LAST. Women do productive things that are harder to account for in standard GDP metrics. Does GDP count the implied value of rearing a child? The years of care that go into motherhood? Does GDP go up $40 when a mom teaches a young child some words for an hour? It would if it was a tutor but it doesn't when it's just a parent. The frame of "women earn less than men" is used to implicitly degrade the life choices of women. I personally just learned that a friend's mom is a foster mother. That is an incredible level of generosity that is outside of my comprehension. Is her being a foster mother worthless because it isn't in wage statistics? She earns a modest income by accounting standards, but the actual value she creates is much higher. Should we tell her to learn to code instead?