6 ms·

I hear this advice about contracts of adhesion all the time, "just red line out the parts you don't like, just like in that scene in 50 Shades of Gray." Who in

I hear this advice about contracts of adhesion all the time, "just red line out the parts you don't like, just like in that scene in 50 Shades of Gray." Who in the software industry still gets offers like that? Everyone I know gets a DocuSign PDF they sign digitally. There's no opportunity to alter the document. There is basically no non-confrontational way to do this. If a software developer has a competing offer, sure, leverage it. Otherwise, I think the only realistic remedy is a state-wide or nation-wide legal protection.

icedchai 9y ago
I've had multiple employers "alter the document." I send an email, saying I have reviewed, saying I can't sign unless A, B, and C are done. Usually, this involves removing clauses about not having other employment or side work, which are a non-starter for me. One employer added an appendix full of "exceptions", saying "all side work is allowed, not further authorization required."
etjossem 9y ago
Sure, they can turn off editing in DocuSign, but that doesn't change what this is: a negotiation. Download it as a PDF and then copy/paste it into a Google Doc. Edit the document as you feel is necessary, print both the redlined copy (so you can explain your proposed changes) and the clean one. If they're cool with it, sign the clean employment agreement together on the spot. Make copies and you're done.
3pt14159 9y ago
What? Only if you're very inexperienced will this be tricky, once you're senior nobody bats an eye when I ask for things to be changed in the contract. A contract is part of communicating how we will work together. Demonstrate that you're competent by clearly communicating the changes you want and why you want them and if they react back poorly then you dodged a major bullet, since they'll also communicate poorly in day to day functions. I'm not saying you'll always get what you want, but there should never be anger, and just because you're sent a signable document via DocuSign doesn't mean you have to sign that version of it.
- AnkhMorporkian 9y ago
  I've been working in software for a long time, and have been asked to sign non-competes over a dozen times by now. I'm a contractor, which makes it much easier to turn down (how the hell could I possibly keep working with a non-compete?), but the OP is correct in that almost everything is a PDF nowadays. You have to bitch and scream to get a contract changed. Most naive workers won't understand that there's a negotiation process; they simply think that the contract represents the job.
  - 3pt14159 9y ago
    I've never had to send more than an email. > Hey Frank, just read through the non-compete and I have a few small changes. 1. Since we're only working on a proto-type for a classifier for sorting documents can we amend the non-compete to specifically mention that domain? I don't want to limit my options unnecessarily but I appreciate you wanting to stop me from turning around and selling this stuff to Microsoft once you're done. 2. The term is unlimited right now, which I'm not even sure if that can stand up in court. Let's cap it at 2 years from project completion or my leaving the project. If it's easier for you to just agree to these changes over email just reply by saying "Sure Zach, these changes are completely reasonable." and I'll sign and add "with agreed changes" next to my signature. That will 100% stand up in court, and really if they say "no" to it then you say "no" to the opportunity, but I've never not been able to get to an agreement with someone. Good help is hard to find, and a little charisma goes a long way when negotiating.
    - etjossem 9y ago
      Restricting the noncompete to cover only a very narrow domain can work too. Depending on how specialized you are, that might not be enough, which is why I recommend conceding only term-of-employment. Your example sounds perfectly fine! But if you've spent decades building "3D animation engines for games" at various companies that do so - and that's basically your career now - you won't be helped much by being specific about what type of work is considered competition. YMMV, so concede only in ways that leave your options open.
    - 9y ago
metaphorm 9y ago
contract negotiation requires human interaction. the "redline the clauses that are unacceptable to you" statement should be treated as non-literal. you don't literally resubmit a document with struck text. you get on the phone and talk to the hiring manager.
- etjossem 9y ago
  Mhm! This is something any professional should learn to do early on. You can literally print a new document and show them the changes you've made, but you still have to interact with the person hiring you.
random_comment 9y ago
If the other side sees ordinary negotiation as 'confrontation', walk away.
probably_wrong 9y ago
Quoting Herb Cohen's "You can negotiate anything" about signing leases under unfavorable terms: "In rare cases where a person still hesitated to sign his or her name, I might add 'The legal people won't approve of any changes'. Keep in mind that the legal people didn't even know they wouldn't approve of any changes. Nevertheless, the phrase worked like a charm, since 'legal people' projects, on a wide screen, a powerful image of legitimacy. One theoretically doesn't fool around with the legal people." Part of the magic of contracts is that everyone seems to believe they are magic. But a contract is simply an agreement between two parts. You are more than welcome to suggest changes to it. As for the PDF, just because the company makes it harder for you to change its terms it doesn't mean that you can't still do it. For an extreme case, this guy[1] scanned a credit card contract, modified its terms, and send the modified application back. He then sued the bank, and won (they settled during a later appeal). [1] http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/personalfinance/borrowing/creditcards/10231556/Man-who-created-own-credit-card-sues-bank-for-not-sticking-to-terms.html http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/personalfinance/borrowing...
- big_spammer 9y ago
  This extreme case of sending the modified application back is the perfect countermove!
- concede_pluto 9y ago
  How can there be a valid meeting of the minds if you're expecting me not to notice my words have been tampered with?
  - emiliobumachar 9y ago
    That is a very good argument, but some banks are very dependant on nobody reading the fine print. Can you call that a meeting of the minds?
siegel 9y ago
There is a non-confrontational way to do this. Download the PDF, figure out what is making you uncomfortable (or hire a lawyer to review), and just send a list of concerns. Make them matter of fact, but not accusatory. This is assertive. But it's not "confrontational." And if your employer withdraws the offer because of it, it's a huge red flag and you're lucky. But I've never seen an offer revoked for asking questions. If you have more leverage, then you can be more "confrontational." You might want to mark up the agreement (or have a lawyer do it) and send back. That may seem a bit more forward, but you can certainly do it. Please don't think you can't question what your employer puts in front of you. Maybe they won't revise the agreement for you, but it's worth trying if you have concerns.
- deleted 9y ago
  [deleted]
mcv 9y ago
There is absolutely a non-confrontational way to do this. Call them. Tell them you have a few questions about a couple of points in the contract. Ask them what point 3.2 means, tell them you'd like point 4.1 can be rephrased to make something clearer, and that you'd like the non-compete clause clause in 7.2 to be limited in duration and scope, because the way it's currently phrased, it could be interpreted as signing away your right to work, and that's obviously unreasonable. Be reasonable, and you will likely get most of what you want. If they are unreasonable, you're probably better off working somewhere else.

icedchai 9y ago

I've had multiple employers "alter the document." I send an email, saying I have reviewed, saying I can't sign unless A, B, and C are done. Usually, this involves removing clauses about not having other employment or side work, which are a non-starter for me. One employer added an appendix full of "exceptions", saying "all side work is allowed, not further authorization required."

etjossem 9y ago

Sure, they can turn off editing in DocuSign, but that doesn't change what this is: a negotiation. Download it as a PDF and then copy/paste it into a Google Doc. Edit the document as you feel is necessary, print both the redlined copy (so you can explain your proposed changes) and the clean one. If they're cool with it, sign the clean employment agreement together on the spot. Make copies and you're done.

3pt14159 9y ago

What? Only if you're very inexperienced will this be tricky, once you're senior nobody bats an eye when I ask for things to be changed in the contract. A contract is part of communicating how we will work together. Demonstrate that you're competent by clearly communicating the changes you want and why you want them and if they react back poorly then you dodged a major bullet, since they'll also communicate poorly in day to day functions. I'm not saying you'll always get what you want, but there should never be anger, and just because you're sent a signable document via DocuSign doesn't mean you have to sign that version of it.

AnkhMorporkian 9y ago
I've been working in software for a long time, and have been asked to sign non-competes over a dozen times by now. I'm a contractor, which makes it much easier to turn down (how the hell could I possibly keep working with a non-compete?), but the OP is correct in that almost everything is a PDF nowadays. You have to bitch and scream to get a contract changed. Most naive workers won't understand that there's a negotiation process; they simply think that the contract represents the job.
- 3pt14159 9y ago
  I've never had to send more than an email. > Hey Frank, just read through the non-compete and I have a few small changes. 1. Since we're only working on a proto-type for a classifier for sorting documents can we amend the non-compete to specifically mention that domain? I don't want to limit my options unnecessarily but I appreciate you wanting to stop me from turning around and selling this stuff to Microsoft once you're done. 2. The term is unlimited right now, which I'm not even sure if that can stand up in court. Let's cap it at 2 years from project completion or my leaving the project. If it's easier for you to just agree to these changes over email just reply by saying "Sure Zach, these changes are completely reasonable." and I'll sign and add "with agreed changes" next to my signature. That will 100% stand up in court, and really if they say "no" to it then you say "no" to the opportunity, but I've never not been able to get to an agreement with someone. Good help is hard to find, and a little charisma goes a long way when negotiating.
  - etjossem 9y ago
    Restricting the noncompete to cover only a very narrow domain can work too. Depending on how specialized you are, that might not be enough, which is why I recommend conceding only term-of-employment. Your example sounds perfectly fine! But if you've spent decades building "3D animation engines for games" at various companies that do so - and that's basically your career now - you won't be helped much by being specific about what type of work is considered competition. YMMV, so concede only in ways that leave your options open.
  - 9y ago

metaphorm 9y ago

contract negotiation requires human interaction. the "redline the clauses that are unacceptable to you" statement should be treated as non-literal. you don't literally resubmit a document with struck text. you get on the phone and talk to the hiring manager.

etjossem 9y ago
Mhm! This is something any professional should learn to do early on. You can literally print a new document and show them the changes you've made, but you still have to interact with the person hiring you.

random_comment 9y ago

If the other side sees ordinary negotiation as 'confrontation', walk away.

probably_wrong 9y ago

Quoting Herb Cohen's "You can negotiate anything" about signing leases under unfavorable terms: "In rare cases where a person still hesitated to sign his or her name, I might add 'The legal people won't approve of any changes'. Keep in mind that the legal people didn't even know they wouldn't approve of any changes. Nevertheless, the phrase worked like a charm, since 'legal people' projects, on a wide screen, a powerful image of legitimacy. One theoretically doesn't fool around with the legal people." Part of the magic of contracts is that everyone seems to believe they are magic. But a contract is simply an agreement between two parts. You are more than welcome to suggest changes to it. As for the PDF, just because the company makes it harder for you to change its terms it doesn't mean that you can't still do it. For an extreme case, this guy[1] scanned a credit card contract, modified its terms, and send the modified application back. He then sued the bank, and won (they settled during a later appeal). [1] http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/personalfinance/borrowing/creditcards/10231556/Man-who-created-own-credit-card-sues-bank-for-not-sticking-to-terms.html http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/personalfinance/borrowing...

big_spammer 9y ago
This extreme case of sending the modified application back is the perfect countermove!
concede_pluto 9y ago
How can there be a valid meeting of the minds if you're expecting me not to notice my words have been tampered with?
- emiliobumachar 9y ago
  That is a very good argument, but some banks are very dependant on nobody reading the fine print. Can you call that a meeting of the minds?

siegel 9y ago

There is a non-confrontational way to do this. Download the PDF, figure out what is making you uncomfortable (or hire a lawyer to review), and just send a list of concerns. Make them matter of fact, but not accusatory. This is assertive. But it's not "confrontational." And if your employer withdraws the offer because of it, it's a huge red flag and you're lucky. But I've never seen an offer revoked for asking questions. If you have more leverage, then you can be more "confrontational." You might want to mark up the agreement (or have a lawyer do it) and send back. That may seem a bit more forward, but you can certainly do it. Please don't think you can't question what your employer puts in front of you. Maybe they won't revise the agreement for you, but it's worth trying if you have concerns.

deleted 9y ago
[deleted]

mcv 9y ago

There is absolutely a non-confrontational way to do this. Call them. Tell them you have a few questions about a couple of points in the contract. Ask them what point 3.2 means, tell them you'd like point 4.1 can be rephrased to make something clearer, and that you'd like the non-compete clause clause in 7.2 to be limited in duration and scope, because the way it's currently phrased, it could be interpreted as signing away your right to work, and that's obviously unreasonable. Be reasonable, and you will likely get most of what you want. If they are unreasonable, you're probably better off working somewhere else.