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How long until vendors start shipping "linux" software binaries that depend on a microsoft-specific quirk in their Linux kernel ABI reimplementation, and real L

by 0x0 9y ago

How long until vendors start shipping "linux" software binaries that depend on a microsoft-specific quirk in their Linux kernel ABI reimplementation, and real Linux will need to add support for MS-Linux kernel ABI variant :)

arca_vorago 9y ago
I don't think vendors will do this for a while. After getting a lot of flak for railing against this (replacing the gplv2 linux kernel with a proprietary closed source one, essentially), I did some reading... it seems as if it's so buggy all kinds of basic software doesn't even work. On top of all the idealogical reasons to not use this, pragmatically MS has a very long way to go before the WSL is any kind of real threat to GNU+linux. Emphasis on GNU. This is usually where someone naively says "but GNU tools aren't that good and aren't used these days" (which is utter bs) If you take the GNU and the linux out of GNU+linux and put it top of windows, what do you have left? Basically just windows. To hell with that. Windows is malware. https://www.gnu.org/proprietary/malware-microsoft.html https://www.gnu.org/proprietary/malware-microsoft.html
- trentnelson 9y ago
  It's not buggy at all -- I've been using it extensively since it was first available and have not run into a single issue.
  - metaobject 9y ago
    We had issues getting cron to run properly a month or so ago on Windows 10. Researching the issue revealed that other people had the same issues. So there certainly are some bugs.
  - AlexeyBrin 9y ago
    To be fair, it depends on your usage, here are two problems that I found: * Swift runs natively on Ubuntu, however on WSL only the compiler works. If you try to run the REPL it will crash. * Emacs, slow start, seems to work for simple editing. Crashes when you try to install a package or when you try to list the available packages.
Eridrus 9y ago
Seems as likely as asking when Linux will emulate BSD. More likely I think is open source developers being asked to add patches to support limitations of WSL.
- AnkhMorporkian 9y ago
  That's already happening. I've had pull requests for WSL issues in a piece of software I support, and I've seen them in other places. Not the worst thing in the world.
trentnelson 9y ago
You're missing another possibility: providing a thin Linux shim layer that farms out to a process on NT that is able to exploit the far richer kernel offerings. (Or just wait for the virtualized NT kernel that SQL Server Linux is built upon to become usable for things other than SQL Server.)
Analemma_ 9y ago
It seems unlikely, especially now that the WSL supports multiple distros. I don't see how multiple distros, which only have Windows support as secondary, could all depend on a Windows-specific quirk. Also, I imagine that if anyone ever tried submitting a kernel patch to support a Microsoft-specific ABI, Linus would rip their heart out Temple of Doom-style.
- rch 9y ago
  This could happen: some application(s) will be shown to have better performance on both WSL and Linux with a given patch, but WSL will outperform Linux because of a patent-encumbered optimization.
oblio 9y ago
Far away, most likely. I don't think there's much overlap in the kinds of things that run on Windows and those that run on Linux. How many people do you know with PostgreSQL or MySQL in production, on Windows? Or with those vertical solutions usually available only on Windows?
lsllc 9y ago
Microsoft has done this before: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AARD_code https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AARD_code
detaro 9y ago
Seems unlikely to me: If they are a vendor starting from Linux, they'd not do this while adding support for WSL. If they are a vendor starting from Windows, WSL is not an interesting target for them, and their customers wouldn't buy the product to run it on WSL – they'd have to name an actual Linux as the target platform, and it'd have to work there. It could happen with very dysfunctional companies, but I don't see it developing enough pressure to change anything about Linux.

by 0x0 9y ago

arca_vorago 9y ago

I don't think vendors will do this for a while. After getting a lot of flak for railing against this (replacing the gplv2 linux kernel with a proprietary closed source one, essentially), I did some reading... it seems as if it's so buggy all kinds of basic software doesn't even work. On top of all the idealogical reasons to not use this, pragmatically MS has a very long way to go before the WSL is any kind of real threat to GNU+linux. Emphasis on GNU. This is usually where someone naively says "but GNU tools aren't that good and aren't used these days" (which is utter bs) If you take the GNU and the linux out of GNU+linux and put it top of windows, what do you have left? Basically just windows. To hell with that. Windows is malware. https://www.gnu.org/proprietary/malware-microsoft.html https://www.gnu.org/proprietary/malware-microsoft.html

trentnelson 9y ago
It's not buggy at all -- I've been using it extensively since it was first available and have not run into a single issue.
- metaobject 9y ago
  We had issues getting cron to run properly a month or so ago on Windows 10. Researching the issue revealed that other people had the same issues. So there certainly are some bugs.
- AlexeyBrin 9y ago
  To be fair, it depends on your usage, here are two problems that I found: * Swift runs natively on Ubuntu, however on WSL only the compiler works. If you try to run the REPL it will crash. * Emacs, slow start, seems to work for simple editing. Crashes when you try to install a package or when you try to list the available packages.

Eridrus 9y ago

Seems as likely as asking when Linux will emulate BSD. More likely I think is open source developers being asked to add patches to support limitations of WSL.

AnkhMorporkian 9y ago
That's already happening. I've had pull requests for WSL issues in a piece of software I support, and I've seen them in other places. Not the worst thing in the world.

trentnelson 9y ago

You're missing another possibility: providing a thin Linux shim layer that farms out to a process on NT that is able to exploit the far richer kernel offerings. (Or just wait for the virtualized NT kernel that SQL Server Linux is built upon to become usable for things other than SQL Server.)

Analemma_ 9y ago

It seems unlikely, especially now that the WSL supports multiple distros. I don't see how multiple distros, which only have Windows support as secondary, could all depend on a Windows-specific quirk. Also, I imagine that if anyone ever tried submitting a kernel patch to support a Microsoft-specific ABI, Linus would rip their heart out Temple of Doom-style.

rch 9y ago
This could happen: some application(s) will be shown to have better performance on both WSL and Linux with a given patch, but WSL will outperform Linux because of a patent-encumbered optimization.

oblio 9y ago

Far away, most likely. I don't think there's much overlap in the kinds of things that run on Windows and those that run on Linux. How many people do you know with PostgreSQL or MySQL in production, on Windows? Or with those vertical solutions usually available only on Windows?

lsllc 9y ago

Microsoft has done this before: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AARD_code https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AARD_code

detaro 9y ago

Seems unlikely to me: If they are a vendor starting from Linux, they'd not do this while adding support for WSL. If they are a vendor starting from Windows, WSL is not an interesting target for them, and their customers wouldn't buy the product to run it on WSL – they'd have to name an actual Linux as the target platform, and it'd have to work there. It could happen with very dysfunctional companies, but I don't see it developing enough pressure to change anything about Linux.