4 ms·

We can only hope.

by copperheart 9y ago

We can only hope.

tonyedgecombe 9y ago
It wasn't a good thing.
- ue_ 9y ago
  It depends; perhaps it will push people to realise that the current system of affairs is broken, and then to push people to a revolution.
  - tonyedgecombe 9y ago
    The trouble with revolutions is you just end up with a new set of leaders.
    - pleboidal 9y ago
      And dead people, and destroyed cities. And purges, and violent warlords siezing power, and military coups. And refugees, and food shortages, and torture chambers, and sabotage. And unprecedented political polarization, and oh maybe disappearances and murders that look like suicides...
      - ue_ 9y ago
        As much as I would like to achieve Socialism via democratic reform within the system, various figures (Emma Goldman, Lenin, Rosa Luxemburg, even Engels himself) have noted that working within the existing system ("bourgeois democracy") would not be sufficient to bring about lasting change, as the system itself is built to serve the interests of capital. I am wholly against the things you mentioned, of course, which is why it has been the task of current revolutionaries to plan and organise effectively to minimise these things.
        tim333 9y ago
        > working within the existing system ("bourgeois democracy") would not be sufficient to bring about lasting change, as the system itself is built to serve the interests of capital. I think the problem is more that when you do vote in socialism as in Venezuela the system sucks. Then it either gets voted out again or you get a violent dictatorship.
        ue_ 9y ago
        Venezuela is not a Socialist country, and I do not support dictatorships. In line with Marx and Engels, I support the gradual transference of power away from the state (which must be at once transformed into the complete and democratic control of the whole working class upon seizure) and into the hands of the people, as such the state "withers away".
        tonyedgecombe 9y ago
        Where has that not fallen into dictatorship? It's a nice idea, the problem is human nature gets in the way.
        Pica_soO 9y ago
        They just never really read the Scottsman-scrolls right and how could they thus do a true implementation of the Scottsmann ideology!
        ue_ 9y ago
        There is a very simple test of whether a society is a Socialist one; namely, a society is Socialist if its predominant mode of production is the Socialist one. The Socialist mode of production is distinguished from all others by the following: * Communal (worker) ownership of the means of production (land and machinery used to make goods for society) * Government composed entirely of the workers, making decisions in the interest of the workers * Goods are produced to be used rather than exchanged on a market * Wage labour is not dominant in the economy * The functions of private property have been abolished and thus there is no more private property. Venezuela fails all of these criteria. It's not "no true Scotsman", it's the truth. Someone called Angus, who calls himself a Scotsman, but who doesn't have Scottish citizenship, nationality, lineage nor has he ever lived in Scotland is not a Scotsman.
    - Terr_ 9y ago
      Relevant Terry Pratchett quote regarding revolutions: > People on the side of The People always ended up disappointed, in any case. They found that The People tended not to be grateful or appreciative or forward-thinking or obedient. The People tended to be small-minded and conservative and not very clever and were even distrustful of cleverness. > And so the children of the revolution were faced with the age-old problem: it wasn't that you had the wrong kind of government, which was obvious, but that you had the wrong kind of people. -- Night Watch
      - Pica_soO 9y ago
        I love this book. Its so- human, so deeply human. Everything falls apart, and Pratchett could have been cynical, and mocked the whole endeavor of regime change - turning Ankh Morpork into a blood bath- instead, he put grandmothers on the barricades (mind where you put the good furniture!) and the whole civil war afair ended in a happy little turmoil with free steaks and not free pasty (i m obviously ruining myself here). Always think of that book smelling Syringa I always read that book when i despair about the species, or im hyped by something and want to get down to earth.

We can only hope.

tonyedgecombe 9y ago

It wasn't a good thing.

ue_ 9y ago
It depends; perhaps it will push people to realise that the current system of affairs is broken, and then to push people to a revolution.
- tonyedgecombe 9y ago
  The trouble with revolutions is you just end up with a new set of leaders.
  - pleboidal 9y ago
    And dead people, and destroyed cities. And purges, and violent warlords siezing power, and military coups. And refugees, and food shortages, and torture chambers, and sabotage. And unprecedented political polarization, and oh maybe disappearances and murders that look like suicides...
    - ue_ 9y ago
      As much as I would like to achieve Socialism via democratic reform within the system, various figures (Emma Goldman, Lenin, Rosa Luxemburg, even Engels himself) have noted that working within the existing system ("bourgeois democracy") would not be sufficient to bring about lasting change, as the system itself is built to serve the interests of capital. I am wholly against the things you mentioned, of course, which is why it has been the task of current revolutionaries to plan and organise effectively to minimise these things.
      - tim333 9y ago
        > working within the existing system ("bourgeois democracy") would not be sufficient to bring about lasting change, as the system itself is built to serve the interests of capital. I think the problem is more that when you do vote in socialism as in Venezuela the system sucks. Then it either gets voted out again or you get a violent dictatorship.
        ue_ 9y ago
        Venezuela is not a Socialist country, and I do not support dictatorships. In line with Marx and Engels, I support the gradual transference of power away from the state (which must be at once transformed into the complete and democratic control of the whole working class upon seizure) and into the hands of the people, as such the state "withers away".
        tonyedgecombe 9y ago
        Where has that not fallen into dictatorship? It's a nice idea, the problem is human nature gets in the way.
        Pica_soO 9y ago
        They just never really read the Scottsman-scrolls right and how could they thus do a true implementation of the Scottsmann ideology!
        ue_ 9y ago
        There is a very simple test of whether a society is a Socialist one; namely, a society is Socialist if its predominant mode of production is the Socialist one. The Socialist mode of production is distinguished from all others by the following: * Communal (worker) ownership of the means of production (land and machinery used to make goods for society) * Government composed entirely of the workers, making decisions in the interest of the workers * Goods are produced to be used rather than exchanged on a market * Wage labour is not dominant in the economy * The functions of private property have been abolished and thus there is no more private property. Venezuela fails all of these criteria. It's not "no true Scotsman", it's the truth. Someone called Angus, who calls himself a Scotsman, but who doesn't have Scottish citizenship, nationality, lineage nor has he ever lived in Scotland is not a Scotsman.
  - Terr_ 9y ago
    Relevant Terry Pratchett quote regarding revolutions: > People on the side of The People always ended up disappointed, in any case. They found that The People tended not to be grateful or appreciative or forward-thinking or obedient. The People tended to be small-minded and conservative and not very clever and were even distrustful of cleverness. > And so the children of the revolution were faced with the age-old problem: it wasn't that you had the wrong kind of government, which was obvious, but that you had the wrong kind of people. -- Night Watch
    - Pica_soO 9y ago
      I love this book. Its so- human, so deeply human. Everything falls apart, and Pratchett could have been cynical, and mocked the whole endeavor of regime change - turning Ankh Morpork into a blood bath- instead, he put grandmothers on the barricades (mind where you put the good furniture!) and the whole civil war afair ended in a happy little turmoil with free steaks and not free pasty (i m obviously ruining myself here). Always think of that book smelling Syringa I always read that book when i despair about the species, or im hyped by something and want to get down to earth.