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Yeah the recent anti free speech movement and fall of free speech in Europe has given me a much greater appreciation for America than I used to have.

by cgag 9y ago

Certhas 9y ago
What fall of free speech in Europe? By aggregate score about every EU country ranks ahead of the US in the Freedom House Freedom index: https://freedomhouse.org/report/fiw-2017-table-country-scores https://freedomhouse.org/report/fiw-2017-table-country-score... The US comes in at 48th. That's not because it's score is particularly bad, it's because freedom is highly valued and strongly protected in many countries. The only countries with a perfect score are Finland, Norway and Sweden.
- cgag 9y ago
  Actual hate speech laws, laws against holocaust denial, getting arrested for saying offensive things on twitter, that kind of thing.
- areyousure 9y ago
  Online sources suggest that Finland, Norway, and Sweden all have strong blasphemy and/or hate speech laws (the subject of TFA, you may note). While Norway seems to not enforce their laws, Sweden and especially Finland do.
  - imartin2k 9y ago
    Not sure about this law but in my experience at least, in Sweden (where I live), talking critical about religion in public conversations is way more the rule than (in my experience) elsewhere (I can compare with Germany and the U.S.). Most Swedes are either not practicing religion or are atheists.
- imartin2k 9y ago
  And in the latest press freedom index ranking, 8 out of 10 countries are in Europe. The U.S. is #43. https://rsf.org/en/ranking https://rsf.org/en/ranking
  - cgag 9y ago
    meanwhile in finland: http://yle.fi/uutiset/osasto/news/three_finns_party_politicians_in_court_over_online_hate_speech/9388039 http://yle.fi/uutiset/osasto/news/three_finns_party_politici...
AsyncAwait 9y ago
How has free speech in Europe fallen exactly? Things like college non-platforming are happening in the U.S too. It's true that there are some laws regarding things like Nazi propaganda, but there's still very much free speech in most European countries.
- cgag 9y ago
  Yeah it's gross here too but at least all the "hate speech isn't free speech" signs here are wrong from a legal perspective. I also also don't like the nazi exception.
- fvdessen 9y ago
  In France an atheist activist has been recently condemned to 3 months of prison for saying 'Islam Kills' in public. And that's just one of the most recent cases.
  - imartin2k 9y ago
    As always, single cases really don't say anything about how widespread a phenomenon is statistically, and they don't allow for comparisons with other countries.
    - defen 9y ago
      Conceptually such a thing isn't possible in the US (currently). You would never even be arrested for saying that, let alone sentenced to jail. So the existence of even a single incident in other countries does say something, I would argue. Look at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Snyder_v._Phelps https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Snyder_v._Phelps - they went to the funeral of a soldier who was killed in Iraq, whose father happened to be gay, and held up "GOD HATES FAGS" signs and proclaimed to the world, at his son's funeral, that he had been killed because the father is gay. Pretty much the most offensive thing imaginable and the supreme court sided with them 8-1 that they couldn't even be sued for intentional infliction of emotional distress.
    - im3w1l 9y ago

Yeah the recent anti free speech movement and fall of free speech in Europe has given me a much greater appreciation for America than I used to have.

by cgag 9y ago

Yeah the recent anti free speech movement and fall of free speech in Europe has given me a much greater appreciation for America than I used to have.

Certhas 9y ago

What fall of free speech in Europe? By aggregate score about every EU country ranks ahead of the US in the Freedom House Freedom index: https://freedomhouse.org/report/fiw-2017-table-country-scores https://freedomhouse.org/report/fiw-2017-table-country-score... The US comes in at 48th. That's not because it's score is particularly bad, it's because freedom is highly valued and strongly protected in many countries. The only countries with a perfect score are Finland, Norway and Sweden.

cgag 9y ago
Actual hate speech laws, laws against holocaust denial, getting arrested for saying offensive things on twitter, that kind of thing.
areyousure 9y ago
Online sources suggest that Finland, Norway, and Sweden all have strong blasphemy and/or hate speech laws (the subject of TFA, you may note). While Norway seems to not enforce their laws, Sweden and especially Finland do.
- imartin2k 9y ago
  Not sure about this law but in my experience at least, in Sweden (where I live), talking critical about religion in public conversations is way more the rule than (in my experience) elsewhere (I can compare with Germany and the U.S.). Most Swedes are either not practicing religion or are atheists.
imartin2k 9y ago
And in the latest press freedom index ranking, 8 out of 10 countries are in Europe. The U.S. is #43. https://rsf.org/en/ranking https://rsf.org/en/ranking
- cgag 9y ago
  meanwhile in finland: http://yle.fi/uutiset/osasto/news/three_finns_party_politicians_in_court_over_online_hate_speech/9388039 http://yle.fi/uutiset/osasto/news/three_finns_party_politici...

AsyncAwait 9y ago

How has free speech in Europe fallen exactly? Things like college non-platforming are happening in the U.S too. It's true that there are some laws regarding things like Nazi propaganda, but there's still very much free speech in most European countries.

cgag 9y ago
Yeah it's gross here too but at least all the "hate speech isn't free speech" signs here are wrong from a legal perspective. I also also don't like the nazi exception.
fvdessen 9y ago
In France an atheist activist has been recently condemned to 3 months of prison for saying 'Islam Kills' in public. And that's just one of the most recent cases.
- imartin2k 9y ago
  As always, single cases really don't say anything about how widespread a phenomenon is statistically, and they don't allow for comparisons with other countries.
  - defen 9y ago
    Conceptually such a thing isn't possible in the US (currently). You would never even be arrested for saying that, let alone sentenced to jail. So the existence of even a single incident in other countries does say something, I would argue. Look at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Snyder_v._Phelps https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Snyder_v._Phelps - they went to the funeral of a soldier who was killed in Iraq, whose father happened to be gay, and held up "GOD HATES FAGS" signs and proclaimed to the world, at his son's funeral, that he had been killed because the father is gay. Pretty much the most offensive thing imaginable and the supreme court sided with them 8-1 that they couldn't even be sued for intentional infliction of emotional distress.
  - im3w1l 9y ago