5 ms·

There is no such thing as an EULA attempting to limit your terms. Without a licence, you have no right at all.

qb45 9y ago
> Without a licence, you have no right at all. On what grounds do you have no right to use a copy of software you bought without obtaining an additional license from the vendor? As for copying it's copyright, obviously, but I never understood what's the matter with merely using. IANAL but AFAIK in some EU countries it is recognized that there is no legal basis for EULAs and they officially are void, unless signed as a contract prior to the purchase, of course.
- zAy0LfpBZLC8mAC 9y ago
  > unless signed as a contract prior to the purchase, of course. Not quite. There is no need to sign anything, what matters is if the EULA was included in the sale contract (so, the buyer was aware that the willingness of the seller to sell you the product depended on the buyer accepting those additional terms as part of the contract). On the other hand, if you do indeed sign an additional contract afterwards on your free will that limits your rights, that might very well be enforcable. But the point is that there is no legal necessity to sign such a contract in order to use the software that you have bought.
  - qb45 9y ago
    > There is no need to sign anything, what matters is if the EULA was included in the sale contract (so, the buyer was aware that the willingness of the seller to sell you the product depended on the buyer accepting those additional terms as part of the contract). Yes, it doesn't have to be literally signed, but it needs to be an agreement made at the time of purchase. If I agree to buy Windows under the condition that I won't use it for the development of nuclear weapons, so be it. But it's still not clear why I would need Microsoft's license just to use a copy of Windows I have already bought, sometimes even as part of a computer, which is what parent seemed to claim.
- bluGill 9y ago
  > On what grounds do you have no right to use a copy of software you bought without obtaining an additional license from the vendor To use software you probably have to install it on your computer - this makes a copy of the software. Then when you run it you make another copy into your computer's memory, and additional copies in the the CPU's cache. I don't agree with the above argument (I think fair use covers it), but I have heard it. It isn't hard to read the letter of the law and conclude the above is the correct interpretation. (you might need to see some money...) I honestly do not know how to fix the letter of the law. There are too many special cases. If I have two computers can I install it on both? Can I install it for my family to use? When my computer fails can I install it on the replacement? The above are trick questions: I deliberately asked them to invite answers that imply I can install one copy of software on as many servers as I want for as many users as I want - this seems wrong.
tialaramex 9y ago
The First Sale doctrine gives people who _buy_ something all rights needed to make use of it. It is... disappointing that modern courts have allowed the First Sale doctrine to be watered down so that today there's every chance you will buy something, paying good money, and then be confronted with new "terms" for how you may use the thing you purchased. But it's not in general clear that such an approach is legal.
ticviking 9y ago
In general the claim is that you have particular rights under common law when you purchase something, but the shrinkwrap terms attempt to restrict those rights.
cryptarch 9y ago
What if the EULA applies to a software product you have bought for money and have received a copy of? If it does not include an EULA, are you not allowed to use it? Does the same hold for computer games with an EULA? Or does the existence of an an EULA hold your rights hostage until you agree to it?
- rochellle 9y ago
  For the most part a EULA is just a warranty voiding clause. No reverse engineering, no copying since, apart from selling bootleg copies, duplication enables reverse engineering.
mikeash 9y ago
That's not true. When was the last time you saw a EULA on a book or a CD? Software is not fundamentally different. I give you money, you give me a copy of the product, and then copyright law lets me use that copy within certain bounds.
- jcranmer 9y ago
  Microsoft printed (not sure if it still does) its EULA on the actual physical software packages.
  - mikeash 9y ago
    I mean that the legalities around software are not fundamentally different. The culture around software sales is different. Buy a music CD in a box, no EULA. Buy a software CD in a box, EULA. For no apparent reason.
    - dec0dedab0de 9y ago
      Most music CDs default to "all rights reserved", Movies on the other hand usually have an agreement only allows personal use, as in You cant open a theater and show DVDs.
- webmaven 9y ago
  "EULAs on a book" is basically the practice that the First Sale Doctrine is meant to curb. To wit: "This book is sold subject to the condition that it shall not, by way of trade, be lent, resold, hired out, or otherwise disposed of without the publisher's consent in any form of binding or cover other than that in which it is published." from https://books.google.com/books?id=v-yrLmQNRvsC&pg=PR4 https://books.google.com/books?id=v-yrLmQNRvsC&pg=PR4 , but there are many other examples. Many publishers really didn't like used bookstores and libraries making a single book available to many people over time, replacing the covers as necessary due to wear instead of buying new copies of the book.
  - pmontra 9y ago

qb45 9y ago

> Without a licence, you have no right at all. On what grounds do you have no right to use a copy of software you bought without obtaining an additional license from the vendor? As for copying it's copyright, obviously, but I never understood what's the matter with merely using. IANAL but AFAIK in some EU countries it is recognized that there is no legal basis for EULAs and they officially are void, unless signed as a contract prior to the purchase, of course.

zAy0LfpBZLC8mAC 9y ago
> unless signed as a contract prior to the purchase, of course. Not quite. There is no need to sign anything, what matters is if the EULA was included in the sale contract (so, the buyer was aware that the willingness of the seller to sell you the product depended on the buyer accepting those additional terms as part of the contract). On the other hand, if you do indeed sign an additional contract afterwards on your free will that limits your rights, that might very well be enforcable. But the point is that there is no legal necessity to sign such a contract in order to use the software that you have bought.
- qb45 9y ago
  > There is no need to sign anything, what matters is if the EULA was included in the sale contract (so, the buyer was aware that the willingness of the seller to sell you the product depended on the buyer accepting those additional terms as part of the contract). Yes, it doesn't have to be literally signed, but it needs to be an agreement made at the time of purchase. If I agree to buy Windows under the condition that I won't use it for the development of nuclear weapons, so be it. But it's still not clear why I would need Microsoft's license just to use a copy of Windows I have already bought, sometimes even as part of a computer, which is what parent seemed to claim.
bluGill 9y ago
> On what grounds do you have no right to use a copy of software you bought without obtaining an additional license from the vendor To use software you probably have to install it on your computer - this makes a copy of the software. Then when you run it you make another copy into your computer's memory, and additional copies in the the CPU's cache. I don't agree with the above argument (I think fair use covers it), but I have heard it. It isn't hard to read the letter of the law and conclude the above is the correct interpretation. (you might need to see some money...) I honestly do not know how to fix the letter of the law. There are too many special cases. If I have two computers can I install it on both? Can I install it for my family to use? When my computer fails can I install it on the replacement? The above are trick questions: I deliberately asked them to invite answers that imply I can install one copy of software on as many servers as I want for as many users as I want - this seems wrong.

tialaramex 9y ago

The First Sale doctrine gives people who _buy_ something all rights needed to make use of it. It is... disappointing that modern courts have allowed the First Sale doctrine to be watered down so that today there's every chance you will buy something, paying good money, and then be confronted with new "terms" for how you may use the thing you purchased. But it's not in general clear that such an approach is legal.

ticviking 9y ago

In general the claim is that you have particular rights under common law when you purchase something, but the shrinkwrap terms attempt to restrict those rights.

cryptarch 9y ago

What if the EULA applies to a software product you have bought for money and have received a copy of? If it does not include an EULA, are you not allowed to use it? Does the same hold for computer games with an EULA? Or does the existence of an an EULA hold your rights hostage until you agree to it?

rochellle 9y ago
For the most part a EULA is just a warranty voiding clause. No reverse engineering, no copying since, apart from selling bootleg copies, duplication enables reverse engineering.

mikeash 9y ago

That's not true. When was the last time you saw a EULA on a book or a CD? Software is not fundamentally different. I give you money, you give me a copy of the product, and then copyright law lets me use that copy within certain bounds.

jcranmer 9y ago
Microsoft printed (not sure if it still does) its EULA on the actual physical software packages.
- mikeash 9y ago
  I mean that the legalities around software are not fundamentally different. The culture around software sales is different. Buy a music CD in a box, no EULA. Buy a software CD in a box, EULA. For no apparent reason.
  - dec0dedab0de 9y ago
    Most music CDs default to "all rights reserved", Movies on the other hand usually have an agreement only allows personal use, as in You cant open a theater and show DVDs.
webmaven 9y ago
"EULAs on a book" is basically the practice that the First Sale Doctrine is meant to curb. To wit: "This book is sold subject to the condition that it shall not, by way of trade, be lent, resold, hired out, or otherwise disposed of without the publisher's consent in any form of binding or cover other than that in which it is published." from https://books.google.com/books?id=v-yrLmQNRvsC&pg=PR4 https://books.google.com/books?id=v-yrLmQNRvsC&pg=PR4 , but there are many other examples. Many publishers really didn't like used bookstores and libraries making a single book available to many people over time, replacing the covers as necessary due to wear instead of buying new copies of the book.
- pmontra 9y ago