4 ms·

>It seems that using commercial fingerprint software and captive systems 'similar to the one used by Apple TouchID' is very different from actually testing your

>It seems that using commercial fingerprint software and captive systems 'similar to the one used by Apple TouchID' is very different from actually testing your theories against, you know, Apple TouchID. In theory, there's no difference between theory in practice; In practice, there is. ;] OTOH, Here is a supposed example of an attacker circumventing TouchID iPhone-access controls: "The video shows in detail how CCC member "Starbug" managed to fool the Touch ID sensor of Apple's new iPhone 5s – using only a scanner, tracing paper, a pcb and wood glue." [1] https://www.heise.de/video/artikel/iPhone-5s-Touch-ID-hack-in-detail-1966044.html https://www.heise.de/video/artikel/iPhone-5s-Touch-ID-hack-i...

r00fus 9y ago
That hack uses lab conditions. They have a clear wine glass with a high resolution scanner. More real-life conditions (smeared print, non-glass surface) would be interesting to reproduce. My guess is that it ups the ante significantly for cost of hacking.
- derefr 9y ago
  In "real life"—unless there was some absolute urgency to the problem—you wouldn't try to reconstruct a smudged partial print; you'd just use social engineering/espionage tactics to get a good print. (Remember that iOS locks and/or wipes devices after 10 failed attempts. You want to go to however much effort is required to be perfect the first time.) I can think of a number of situations one could create where a person would have no incredulity about actually inking their fingers and carefully applying fingerprints to a piece of paper. Committed adversaries aren't scared of crimes like "impersonating a police officer", remember.
  - bigiain 9y ago
    I imagine that sort of "committed adversary" is also quite capable of hitting you with a $5 wrench until you tell them the passcode...
    - derefr 9y ago
      I was presuming the sort of high-profile target where kidnapping them would quickly get some snipers emplaced and/or a MOAB dropped on you. If you want to, say, steal a nuclear submarine, you can't just kidnap an admiral and force them to hand over the keys. :P
      - Mtinie 9y ago
        No, that's the inelegant solution. Blackmail works far better with far less blowback.
        bigiain 9y ago
        Or you just subvert their democracy and insert your own puppet commander-in-chief - that way you get _all_ the nuclear submarines...
    - Ntrails 9y ago
      They only have to hit you once, and then put your finger on the button
  - spondyl 9y ago
    Well, 10 failed attempts doesn't necessarily hold water anymore. Wasn't that whole "Can the FBI convince Apple to unlock this iPhone" case solved by backing up the NAND memory and constantly reflashing it after the 10 attempts were used up? I imagine the same process can be applied in this case too
    - snuxoll 9y ago
      Things have changed in the iPhone 5s, you can't bypass the unlock limit by desoldering a NAND chip anymore.
  - spondyl 9y ago
    Well, 10 failed attempts doesn't necessarily hold water anymore. Wasn't that whole "Can the FBI convince Apple to unlock this iPhone" case solved by backing up the NAND memory and constantly reflashing it after the 10 attempts were used up? I imagine the same process can be applied in this case too
  - kalleboo 9y ago
    > Remember that iOS locks and/or wipes devices after 10 failed attempts You only get 5 attempts at TouchID - 10 attempts is for the passcode.
- nezza-_- 9y ago
  This is absolutely not a lab condition. You can very easily extract a fingerprint from a glass or so, as was done e.g. with Wolfgang Schaeuble, a German politician
  - seven 9y ago
    Or just take a photo: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VVxL9ymiyAU https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VVxL9ymiyAU
  - r00fus 9y ago
    Did they then hack into his iPhone? What was the quality of that fingerprint?
- wentoodeep 9y ago
  Smartphone unlock as a service?
ythn 9y ago
"Theory is great in theory, but in practice, practice is better." - ZeroMQ Guide

r00fus 9y ago

That hack uses lab conditions. They have a clear wine glass with a high resolution scanner. More real-life conditions (smeared print, non-glass surface) would be interesting to reproduce. My guess is that it ups the ante significantly for cost of hacking.

derefr 9y ago
In "real life"—unless there was some absolute urgency to the problem—you wouldn't try to reconstruct a smudged partial print; you'd just use social engineering/espionage tactics to get a good print. (Remember that iOS locks and/or wipes devices after 10 failed attempts. You want to go to however much effort is required to be perfect the first time.) I can think of a number of situations one could create where a person would have no incredulity about actually inking their fingers and carefully applying fingerprints to a piece of paper. Committed adversaries aren't scared of crimes like "impersonating a police officer", remember.
- bigiain 9y ago
  I imagine that sort of "committed adversary" is also quite capable of hitting you with a $5 wrench until you tell them the passcode...
  - derefr 9y ago
    I was presuming the sort of high-profile target where kidnapping them would quickly get some snipers emplaced and/or a MOAB dropped on you. If you want to, say, steal a nuclear submarine, you can't just kidnap an admiral and force them to hand over the keys. :P
    - Mtinie 9y ago
      No, that's the inelegant solution. Blackmail works far better with far less blowback.
      - bigiain 9y ago
        Or you just subvert their democracy and insert your own puppet commander-in-chief - that way you get _all_ the nuclear submarines...
  - Ntrails 9y ago
    They only have to hit you once, and then put your finger on the button
- spondyl 9y ago
  Well, 10 failed attempts doesn't necessarily hold water anymore. Wasn't that whole "Can the FBI convince Apple to unlock this iPhone" case solved by backing up the NAND memory and constantly reflashing it after the 10 attempts were used up? I imagine the same process can be applied in this case too
  - snuxoll 9y ago
    Things have changed in the iPhone 5s, you can't bypass the unlock limit by desoldering a NAND chip anymore.
- spondyl 9y ago
  Well, 10 failed attempts doesn't necessarily hold water anymore. Wasn't that whole "Can the FBI convince Apple to unlock this iPhone" case solved by backing up the NAND memory and constantly reflashing it after the 10 attempts were used up? I imagine the same process can be applied in this case too
- kalleboo 9y ago
  > Remember that iOS locks and/or wipes devices after 10 failed attempts You only get 5 attempts at TouchID - 10 attempts is for the passcode.
nezza-_- 9y ago
This is absolutely not a lab condition. You can very easily extract a fingerprint from a glass or so, as was done e.g. with Wolfgang Schaeuble, a German politician
- seven 9y ago
  Or just take a photo: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VVxL9ymiyAU https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VVxL9ymiyAU
- r00fus 9y ago
  Did they then hack into his iPhone? What was the quality of that fingerprint?
wentoodeep 9y ago
Smartphone unlock as a service?

ythn 9y ago

"Theory is great in theory, but in practice, practice is better." - ZeroMQ Guide