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Microsoft are seriously killing it in emulation these days. First I was amazed with them getting Xbox 360 (PPC) games running at full speed or better on the Xb

Microsoft are seriously killing it in emulation these days. First I was amazed with them getting Xbox 360 (PPC) games running at full speed or better on the Xbox One (x86) and now we have x86 on ARM. They have some wizards working on this stuff. Edit: I wonder if Dave Cutler is involved in this x86 on ARM stuff? I think he was with the Xbox 360/Xbox One.

deleted 9y ago
[deleted]
Kenji 9y ago
As far as I know, they don't emulate Xbox 360 games on Xbox One, they port and compile it for the new console, creating entirely new binaries. Not much emulation going on there. Correct me if I'm wrong. EDIT: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Xbox_360_games_compatible_with_Xbox_One https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Xbox_360_games_compati... "Unlike the emulation of original Xbox games on the Xbox 360, the Xbox One does not require game modification, since it emulates an exact replica of its predecessor's environment – both hardware and software operating systems." I stand corrected.
- ceejayoz 9y ago
  http://support.xbox.com/en-US/games/game-setup/play-xbox-360-games-on-xbox-one http://support.xbox.com/en-US/games/game-setup/play-xbox-360... > Xbox 360 games run within an emulator on Xbox One, which means you'll be able to use most features from both systems while playing games, such as screenshots, broadcasting, and Game DVR.
- satysin 9y ago
  It uses emulation. While it is true the user needs to download a 'game image' rather than play the game directly from disc this is because that image is a virtual hard disk that contains the game and a customised Xbox 360 virtual machine that has tweaks for the game. It is similar to PC console emulators that have specific configs for certain games.
  - sjmulder 9y ago
    I thought they do a static recompilation too, from the original binary, but I can't look it up now.
    - monocasa 9y ago
      That's actually probably the case. Xbox 360 banned making arbitrary pages executable (not even the Kernel could do it, the Hypervisor call to mark a page as executable had to come with the signatures signed by Microsoft's private key). So they probably can get away with static recompilation.
- Kipters 9y ago
  AFAIK you're right, developers have to upload a separate build for Xbox One-compatible games
  - _asummers 9y ago
    Which is why they're slowly trickling them out a few at a time (though there's some gems in there!).
- gcb0 9y ago
  from your quote, it's probably neither. looks like api translation like wine does. ...which is rather easy if you wrote the original api.
  - AgentME 9y ago
    The Xbox 360 used the PowerPC cpu architecture, and the Xbone is x86, so there has to be emulation or recompilation involved.
johnchristopher 9y ago
Yeah. Well. When can I get a PC version of fable 2 then ? :-(
deskamess 9y ago
They make a very good Android emulator as well.
- nailer 9y ago
  Where can I download it? Latency on Bluestacks is awful.
  - deskamess 9y ago
    https://www.visualstudio.com/vs/msft-android-emulator/ https://www.visualstudio.com/vs/msft-android-emulator/ If not using Visual Studio, search for 'Acquire on its own' on the page. There is a link in that section.
  - satysin 9y ago
    https://www.visualstudio.com/vs/msft-android-emulator/ https://www.visualstudio.com/vs/msft-android-emulator/ It uses Hyper-V so you will need a Pro version of Windows.
    - tuxidomasx 9y ago
      I've always been kind of bummed out that Hyper-V is disabled on the OS layer for basic Windows versions, even if the hardware supports it.
      - vetinari 9y ago
        Because it breaks other VMs - Vmware, Virtualbox, Intel Haxm. They don't work if Hyper-V is enabled.
      - tracker1 9y ago
        They have to justify the extra price somehow... I don't blame them too much, odds are you are a "pro" user if you want/need Hyper-V. I really like Hyper-V (except the network weirdness no occasion).
Ezhik 9y ago
They actually did namedrop Dave Cutler in the main keynote earlier, although in the context of talking about the Linux Subsystem.
- bborud 9y ago
  That must kill him inside.
  - discreteevent 9y ago
    I would think not. It finally showcases the flexibility he put in to the core of NT.
    - jameskegel 9y ago
      I interpreted that as sarcasm, actually.
    - monocasa 9y ago
      Eh, the WSL stuff avoids most of the NT subsystem style flexibility.
    - qb45 9y ago
      Not that "finally", Windows NT was designed specifically to support POSIX and OS/2 alongside Win32 apps and the first few versions actually shipped it.
      - DaiPlusPlus 9y ago
        Though WSL required more work than WSU or OS/2: they needed a new lightweight process model, for example. That's more serious internal work.
    - bborud 9y ago
      He isn't known for being a fan of Unix.
  - killin_dan 9y ago
Splines 9y ago
Don't forget they also did Xbox (x86) --> Xbox 360 (PPC) emulation. It worked pretty decently well too.
- United857 9y ago
  Makes me wonder why they don't do original Xbox emulation on Xbox One -- seeing that both are X86.
  - IntelMiner 9y ago
    Likely that the games would look rather poor when upscaled to 1080P from 240P/480i Also probably licensing issues, for games with tech that old
mtgx 9y ago
My hope is Microsoft will use these emulation skills for security, too. I'd like to be able to instantly run an app of my choice in a secure virtual environment. Everything should be wiped out when I close the app by default, but I'd also want an option to keep the app's contents persistent. I think they're kind of doing this already with Windows Defender App Guard [1] thing, which for one is a mouthful, second, it should have nothing to do with the exploitable Windows Defender code [2]. It should be part of Windows' lower-level systems, so that not much can interact with it, and it should be available for all apps, not just Microsoft's own apps. Windows on ARM, Project Centennial, App Guard, and more, prove that Microsoft has the ability to do that. If they don't do it, it will only be for political reasons like not wanting Chrome users to benefit from the same technology, or wanting to sell it as "value-add" to enterprise customers, or whatever (basically the same BS they're pulling with Bitlocker). [1] https://blogs.windows.com/msedgedev/2016/09/27/application-guard-microsoft-edge/ https://blogs.windows.com/msedgedev/2016/09/27/application-g... [2] https://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2017/05/windows-defender-nscript-remote-vulnerability/ https://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2017/05/windo...

deleted 9y ago

[deleted]

Kenji 9y ago

As far as I know, they don't emulate Xbox 360 games on Xbox One, they port and compile it for the new console, creating entirely new binaries. Not much emulation going on there. Correct me if I'm wrong. EDIT: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Xbox_360_games_compatible_with_Xbox_One https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Xbox_360_games_compati... "Unlike the emulation of original Xbox games on the Xbox 360, the Xbox One does not require game modification, since it emulates an exact replica of its predecessor's environment – both hardware and software operating systems." I stand corrected.

ceejayoz 9y ago
http://support.xbox.com/en-US/games/game-setup/play-xbox-360-games-on-xbox-one http://support.xbox.com/en-US/games/game-setup/play-xbox-360... > Xbox 360 games run within an emulator on Xbox One, which means you'll be able to use most features from both systems while playing games, such as screenshots, broadcasting, and Game DVR.
satysin 9y ago
It uses emulation. While it is true the user needs to download a 'game image' rather than play the game directly from disc this is because that image is a virtual hard disk that contains the game and a customised Xbox 360 virtual machine that has tweaks for the game. It is similar to PC console emulators that have specific configs for certain games.
- sjmulder 9y ago
  I thought they do a static recompilation too, from the original binary, but I can't look it up now.
  - monocasa 9y ago
    That's actually probably the case. Xbox 360 banned making arbitrary pages executable (not even the Kernel could do it, the Hypervisor call to mark a page as executable had to come with the signatures signed by Microsoft's private key). So they probably can get away with static recompilation.
Kipters 9y ago
AFAIK you're right, developers have to upload a separate build for Xbox One-compatible games
- _asummers 9y ago
  Which is why they're slowly trickling them out a few at a time (though there's some gems in there!).
gcb0 9y ago
from your quote, it's probably neither. looks like api translation like wine does. ...which is rather easy if you wrote the original api.
- AgentME 9y ago
  The Xbox 360 used the PowerPC cpu architecture, and the Xbone is x86, so there has to be emulation or recompilation involved.

johnchristopher 9y ago

Yeah. Well. When can I get a PC version of fable 2 then ? :-(

deskamess 9y ago

They make a very good Android emulator as well.

nailer 9y ago
Where can I download it? Latency on Bluestacks is awful.
- deskamess 9y ago
  https://www.visualstudio.com/vs/msft-android-emulator/ https://www.visualstudio.com/vs/msft-android-emulator/ If not using Visual Studio, search for 'Acquire on its own' on the page. There is a link in that section.
- satysin 9y ago
  https://www.visualstudio.com/vs/msft-android-emulator/ https://www.visualstudio.com/vs/msft-android-emulator/ It uses Hyper-V so you will need a Pro version of Windows.
  - tuxidomasx 9y ago
    I've always been kind of bummed out that Hyper-V is disabled on the OS layer for basic Windows versions, even if the hardware supports it.
    - vetinari 9y ago
      Because it breaks other VMs - Vmware, Virtualbox, Intel Haxm. They don't work if Hyper-V is enabled.
    - tracker1 9y ago
      They have to justify the extra price somehow... I don't blame them too much, odds are you are a "pro" user if you want/need Hyper-V. I really like Hyper-V (except the network weirdness no occasion).

Ezhik 9y ago

They actually did namedrop Dave Cutler in the main keynote earlier, although in the context of talking about the Linux Subsystem.

bborud 9y ago
That must kill him inside.
- discreteevent 9y ago
  I would think not. It finally showcases the flexibility he put in to the core of NT.
  - jameskegel 9y ago
    I interpreted that as sarcasm, actually.
  - monocasa 9y ago
    Eh, the WSL stuff avoids most of the NT subsystem style flexibility.
  - qb45 9y ago
    Not that "finally", Windows NT was designed specifically to support POSIX and OS/2 alongside Win32 apps and the first few versions actually shipped it.
    - DaiPlusPlus 9y ago
      Though WSL required more work than WSU or OS/2: they needed a new lightweight process model, for example. That's more serious internal work.
  - bborud 9y ago
    He isn't known for being a fan of Unix.
- killin_dan 9y ago

Splines 9y ago

Don't forget they also did Xbox (x86) --> Xbox 360 (PPC) emulation. It worked pretty decently well too.

United857 9y ago
Makes me wonder why they don't do original Xbox emulation on Xbox One -- seeing that both are X86.
- IntelMiner 9y ago
  Likely that the games would look rather poor when upscaled to 1080P from 240P/480i Also probably licensing issues, for games with tech that old

mtgx 9y ago

My hope is Microsoft will use these emulation skills for security, too. I'd like to be able to instantly run an app of my choice in a secure virtual environment. Everything should be wiped out when I close the app by default, but I'd also want an option to keep the app's contents persistent. I think they're kind of doing this already with Windows Defender App Guard [1] thing, which for one is a mouthful, second, it should have nothing to do with the exploitable Windows Defender code [2]. It should be part of Windows' lower-level systems, so that not much can interact with it, and it should be available for all apps, not just Microsoft's own apps. Windows on ARM, Project Centennial, App Guard, and more, prove that Microsoft has the ability to do that. If they don't do it, it will only be for political reasons like not wanting Chrome users to benefit from the same technology, or wanting to sell it as "value-add" to enterprise customers, or whatever (basically the same BS they're pulling with Bitlocker). [1] https://blogs.windows.com/msedgedev/2016/09/27/application-guard-microsoft-edge/ https://blogs.windows.com/msedgedev/2016/09/27/application-g... [2] https://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2017/05/windows-defender-nscript-remote-vulnerability/ https://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2017/05/windo...