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Black belt in Gracie Jiu Jitsu here. I thought this debate was settled decisively by the Gracie family and the UFC in the 90s, but apparently the Chinese misse

by orasis 9y ago

Black belt in Gracie Jiu Jitsu here. I thought this debate was settled decisively by the Gracie family and the UFC in the 90s, but apparently the Chinese missed the memo. Delusions are painful to see through especially when they're propping up the ego. Collective delusion even more so. What if everything around you Isn't quite as it seems What if all the world you used to know Is an elaborate dream? And if you look at your reflection Is that all you want it to be? What if you could look right through the cracks Would you find yourself—find yourself afraid to see?" - Trent Reznor

gambler 9y ago
The arrogance of BJJ practitioners truly knows no limits.
- orasis 9y ago
  Arrogance? Or matter-of-factness from sparring and testing the skills on a daily basis? I can see how it's hard to tell the difference. Do you train?
  - r00fus 9y ago
    Does sparring include striking someone when they're down? I think that's the crux of the matter here. There are a dozen better ways to subdue someone who's in a prone position. As a Jiujitsu student that part made me feel ashamed.
    - orasis 9y ago
      The better you get at jiu jitsu, the less damage you'll need to do to control your opponent. Slaps can be effective to get them to open up for the submission - clean, no damage done, and they are forced to psychologically give up, which makes the dominance more definitive.
  - gambler 9y ago
    Sparring has nothing to do with claiming that everyone outside of BJJ/MMA circle is delusional. You response only highlights the problem with your attitude.
    - orasis 9y ago
      I will state clearly. If you train a martial art that doesn't involve live sparring, you are deluded about the efficacy of what you practice. I've been there. 20 years ago I had a black belt in karate, a brown belt in Japanese Jujitsu, and hundreds of hours of Aikido - the first time I faced a college wrestler, I got completely destroyed and had to struggle with the destruction of my precious delusions.
      - Nadya 9y ago
        In a similar vein - no amount of music theory practice will teach you how to play a musical instrument. You actually need to play the musical instrument at some point to improve. Just because you can construct a chord progression doesn't mean you can actually play it on a violin. I'm not sure why what you are saying seems to be contentious or arrogant. It's just reality. Want to get good at fighting? You're going to need to actually fight. A lot.
      - gambler 9y ago
        Contrary to what they say, Gracies did not invent or patent sparring.
        orasis 9y ago
        That is a bizarre allegation. I have never heard a Gracie family member claim that they invented sparring - that would be just plain silly. The martial arts that consistently spar live against a resisting opponent, especially wrestling, boxing, Muay Thai, jiu jitsu, and (sometimes) Judo, are legit combative arts. The grappling arts are unique in their ability to subdue an opponent while dictating the level of violent damage that occurs. Jiu jitsu is unique among grappling arts in its emphasis on leverage and energy management to subdue bigger, larger, more athletic people while minimizing damage to both parties.
madhadron 9y ago
The UFC rules were designed around the Gracie family's jujitsu. Under, say, sansho rules, it looks completely different.
- MagnumOpus 9y ago
  Meh, other rulesets like Pride, Strikeforce, Bellator let similar skillsets rise to the top as well - as do other similar full-contact low-rule MAs like combat sambo. Yes, if you forbid chokes and joint manipulation, you get kickboxing or muaythai, but that is not the point of MMA which tries to get rid of arbitrary rules.
  - madhadron 9y ago
    The rules aren't arbitrary, they just reflect different settings and priorities. UFC and its kindred disallow downward strikes to the back of the head, which makes many grappling entries safe that would otherwise be far too risky to use. Given that it began as a showcase for a mix of grappling and striking, that was perfectly sensible. Sanshou allows throws and locks, but no going to the ground. Outside of a ring or octagon, that's a very reasonable precaution for keeping the fighters safe. Elbows and knees are forbidden in amateur muay thai but allowed in professional because of the level of risk considered acceptable. The most instructive study for this kind of thing I know is the progression of rules in western boxing, which used to involve kicks, wrestling, throws, and weapons. It was steadily narrowed down for safety reasons. Then for fun, go contrast the rulesets and techniques adapted to them with, say, Fairbain and Sykes or Rex Applegate's combatives.

by orasis 9y ago

gambler 9y ago

The arrogance of BJJ practitioners truly knows no limits.

orasis 9y ago
Arrogance? Or matter-of-factness from sparring and testing the skills on a daily basis? I can see how it's hard to tell the difference. Do you train?
- r00fus 9y ago
  Does sparring include striking someone when they're down? I think that's the crux of the matter here. There are a dozen better ways to subdue someone who's in a prone position. As a Jiujitsu student that part made me feel ashamed.
  - orasis 9y ago
    The better you get at jiu jitsu, the less damage you'll need to do to control your opponent. Slaps can be effective to get them to open up for the submission - clean, no damage done, and they are forced to psychologically give up, which makes the dominance more definitive.
- gambler 9y ago
  Sparring has nothing to do with claiming that everyone outside of BJJ/MMA circle is delusional. You response only highlights the problem with your attitude.
  - orasis 9y ago
    I will state clearly. If you train a martial art that doesn't involve live sparring, you are deluded about the efficacy of what you practice. I've been there. 20 years ago I had a black belt in karate, a brown belt in Japanese Jujitsu, and hundreds of hours of Aikido - the first time I faced a college wrestler, I got completely destroyed and had to struggle with the destruction of my precious delusions.
    - Nadya 9y ago
      In a similar vein - no amount of music theory practice will teach you how to play a musical instrument. You actually need to play the musical instrument at some point to improve. Just because you can construct a chord progression doesn't mean you can actually play it on a violin. I'm not sure why what you are saying seems to be contentious or arrogant. It's just reality. Want to get good at fighting? You're going to need to actually fight. A lot.
    - gambler 9y ago
      Contrary to what they say, Gracies did not invent or patent sparring.
      - orasis 9y ago
        That is a bizarre allegation. I have never heard a Gracie family member claim that they invented sparring - that would be just plain silly. The martial arts that consistently spar live against a resisting opponent, especially wrestling, boxing, Muay Thai, jiu jitsu, and (sometimes) Judo, are legit combative arts. The grappling arts are unique in their ability to subdue an opponent while dictating the level of violent damage that occurs. Jiu jitsu is unique among grappling arts in its emphasis on leverage and energy management to subdue bigger, larger, more athletic people while minimizing damage to both parties.

madhadron 9y ago

The UFC rules were designed around the Gracie family's jujitsu. Under, say, sansho rules, it looks completely different.

MagnumOpus 9y ago
Meh, other rulesets like Pride, Strikeforce, Bellator let similar skillsets rise to the top as well - as do other similar full-contact low-rule MAs like combat sambo. Yes, if you forbid chokes and joint manipulation, you get kickboxing or muaythai, but that is not the point of MMA which tries to get rid of arbitrary rules.
- madhadron 9y ago
  The rules aren't arbitrary, they just reflect different settings and priorities. UFC and its kindred disallow downward strikes to the back of the head, which makes many grappling entries safe that would otherwise be far too risky to use. Given that it began as a showcase for a mix of grappling and striking, that was perfectly sensible. Sanshou allows throws and locks, but no going to the ground. Outside of a ring or octagon, that's a very reasonable precaution for keeping the fighters safe. Elbows and knees are forbidden in amateur muay thai but allowed in professional because of the level of risk considered acceptable. The most instructive study for this kind of thing I know is the progression of rules in western boxing, which used to involve kicks, wrestling, throws, and weapons. It was steadily narrowed down for safety reasons. Then for fun, go contrast the rulesets and techniques adapted to them with, say, Fairbain and Sykes or Rex Applegate's combatives.