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The closing paragraph: > “The key difference between what Mr. Xu does and martial arts is that martial arts isn’t a competitive sport,’’ he said. “It’s not abo

by mankyd 9y ago

The closing paragraph: > “The key difference between what Mr. Xu does and martial arts is that martial arts isn’t a competitive sport,’’ he said. “It’s not about really hurting. It’s about giving your opponent ‘face.’ And Mr. Xu’s style is about beating your opponent to near death.” What does that person think the "martial" in martial arts means?

ceejayoz 9y ago
> What does that person think the "martial" in martial arts means? I'm sure they're fully aware of what "martial" means, as well as "arts". Combining the two gets you combat-inspired art. Just as an opera singer might not actually be great at fighting demons, a martial artist isn't necessarily all that great at combat.
- chikei 9y ago
  The only problem is, chinese martial art keep claiming that they're great at combat. When they quote the "art" part, generally they just want an excuse to say that "it's not we martial art not as good as modern stuff like MMA. We're just sparing people."
  - ceejayoz 9y ago
    Oh, that's certainly delusional. As a kid, I learned a martial art, and looking back it's clear to me it was much more use as meditation than combat training.
- brbrodude 9y ago
  I think that's a modern interpretation of what "art" is. It used to be seem as something much closer to 'craft', or something you devote to learning and putting in practice decades to attain mastery and something like that. So martial arts would be really the craft and art of fighting, killing, defending, war and etc. I'd suppose the admiration that people took in what the 'artmen'/'craftsmen' discovered and became capable of doing spawned, in turn, what is commonly tried to be pinned down as 'art', today. My thesis on the OP is just that tradition and 'show' took over the chinese martial arts, then they got practiced and studied as something on the sky instead of practical art, and so it now loses to the more pragmatic martial art of today(that is, ignoring the spiritual aspect of it). But imagine centuries ago how much someone with training on the traditional martial arts could kick way more ass and protect his ground compared to a nobody. Even today someone without any training will most certainly have very little chance against a one trained in 'traditional martial arts', it's just not so specialized. Interesting to note that Bruce Lee on his later years was making his own martial art that was meant to be practical and raw, there's various quotes of him talking about that, maybe the guys could pick that up.
  - brbrodude 9y ago
    another little detail, too. Is that MMA is built on top of what the old stuff discovered, and so, obviously it ends up with a much shorter road to travel to improve and etc.. The traditional guys could easily pick up from there and make their "mma with chinese characteristics" which could probably be kickass too or something :p
- nocilantro 9y ago
  I guess it depends on the martial art? The ones that emphasize sparring with full resistance have found practical success in MMA, such as Judo, Muay Thai, and BJJ. I don't think many people would say a trained mixed martial artist is not great at combat.
eeks 9y ago
The "martial" part is about fighting. The "art" part is about honor, respect, and sportsmanship -- or "giving your opponent face".
- mankyd 9y ago
  Sure, but I am pretty sure the fighting is, by definition, competitive. And it seemed like a reasonably honorable fight to me. He didn't sucker punch him - far from it. They agreed to terms of a contest. They met, fought, and stopped when the ref declared a winner. Did he embarass the other man? Maybe, but the other man stepped up and did his best. Good for them both. The MMA fighter wanted to stop what he considers fraudsters. Good for him! You don't get to have your feelings spared just because you invent some sense of honor which you think others must adhere to. Turn down the offer to spar if you think the outcome won't be to your liking.
agumonkey 9y ago
You know, even war has rules and code.
- eeks 9y ago
  Used to. Sadly.
- fsargent 9y ago
  "Gentlemen, you can't fight in here! This is the war room!" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UAeqVGP-GPM https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UAeqVGP-GPM Dr. Strangelove or: How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Love the Bomb
- sgift 9y ago
  And did one of the participants here break one of these rules? Or did the people start crying foul after their preferred candidate lost? I sense some goal-post shifting going on here.
panglott 9y ago
"Martial" historically refers to stabbing armored men with spears more than it has meant punching and grappling people on TV.

by mankyd 9y ago

ceejayoz 9y ago

> What does that person think the "martial" in martial arts means? I'm sure they're fully aware of what "martial" means, as well as "arts". Combining the two gets you combat-inspired art. Just as an opera singer might not actually be great at fighting demons, a martial artist isn't necessarily all that great at combat.

chikei 9y ago
The only problem is, chinese martial art keep claiming that they're great at combat. When they quote the "art" part, generally they just want an excuse to say that "it's not we martial art not as good as modern stuff like MMA. We're just sparing people."
- ceejayoz 9y ago
  Oh, that's certainly delusional. As a kid, I learned a martial art, and looking back it's clear to me it was much more use as meditation than combat training.
brbrodude 9y ago
I think that's a modern interpretation of what "art" is. It used to be seem as something much closer to 'craft', or something you devote to learning and putting in practice decades to attain mastery and something like that. So martial arts would be really the craft and art of fighting, killing, defending, war and etc. I'd suppose the admiration that people took in what the 'artmen'/'craftsmen' discovered and became capable of doing spawned, in turn, what is commonly tried to be pinned down as 'art', today. My thesis on the OP is just that tradition and 'show' took over the chinese martial arts, then they got practiced and studied as something on the sky instead of practical art, and so it now loses to the more pragmatic martial art of today(that is, ignoring the spiritual aspect of it). But imagine centuries ago how much someone with training on the traditional martial arts could kick way more ass and protect his ground compared to a nobody. Even today someone without any training will most certainly have very little chance against a one trained in 'traditional martial arts', it's just not so specialized. Interesting to note that Bruce Lee on his later years was making his own martial art that was meant to be practical and raw, there's various quotes of him talking about that, maybe the guys could pick that up.
- brbrodude 9y ago
  another little detail, too. Is that MMA is built on top of what the old stuff discovered, and so, obviously it ends up with a much shorter road to travel to improve and etc.. The traditional guys could easily pick up from there and make their "mma with chinese characteristics" which could probably be kickass too or something :p
nocilantro 9y ago
I guess it depends on the martial art? The ones that emphasize sparring with full resistance have found practical success in MMA, such as Judo, Muay Thai, and BJJ. I don't think many people would say a trained mixed martial artist is not great at combat.

eeks 9y ago

The "martial" part is about fighting. The "art" part is about honor, respect, and sportsmanship -- or "giving your opponent face".

mankyd 9y ago
Sure, but I am pretty sure the fighting is, by definition, competitive. And it seemed like a reasonably honorable fight to me. He didn't sucker punch him - far from it. They agreed to terms of a contest. They met, fought, and stopped when the ref declared a winner. Did he embarass the other man? Maybe, but the other man stepped up and did his best. Good for them both. The MMA fighter wanted to stop what he considers fraudsters. Good for him! You don't get to have your feelings spared just because you invent some sense of honor which you think others must adhere to. Turn down the offer to spar if you think the outcome won't be to your liking.

agumonkey 9y ago

You know, even war has rules and code.

eeks 9y ago
Used to. Sadly.
fsargent 9y ago
"Gentlemen, you can't fight in here! This is the war room!" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UAeqVGP-GPM https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UAeqVGP-GPM Dr. Strangelove or: How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Love the Bomb
sgift 9y ago
And did one of the participants here break one of these rules? Or did the people start crying foul after their preferred candidate lost? I sense some goal-post shifting going on here.

panglott 9y ago

"Martial" historically refers to stabbing armored men with spears more than it has meant punching and grappling people on TV.