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M.M.A. Fighter’s Pummeling of Tai Chi Master Rattles China
- deleted 9y ago[deleted]
- austincheney 9y agoThis reminds me of the criticism of JavaScript from many C++/Java/C# developers.
- proaralyst 9y agoCould you elaborate? Which way round do you mean this to be?
- austincheney 9y agoC++/Java/C# are formally taught languages for students in school earning a computer science education. Most software developers are produced by 4 year university programs teaching students in these languages. For many of these developers the paradigms shared by those languages are the very definition and essence of programming. When these developers are tasked to write in JavaScript at work without any preparation or training, which is quite common, the myth of their narrowly defined view of programming is shattered. This results in low confidence and depression, but is frequently manifested in excuses, blaming the technology, other forms of cognitive complexity, and depression. JavaScript is different than these other languages and makes no attempt to masquerade as such, which can be deceiving as the syntax is visibly similar.
- mulletbum 9y agoKind of confused why this is on HN, but I practice Jujitsu and would just like to say, it is perfectly fine to think your style of martial arts should be compared to Yoga. Don't however compare your art to MMA. Also, this article really makes MMA sound like a brutal no holds barred sport, which is just incorrect. MMA is as beautiful as all the other previous martial arts (I know, I know, MMA is a conglomerate of all of them). People have spent the last 20 years trying to say MMA is a blood sport. This is just another attempt to pose it as such.
- aaron-lebo 9y agoedit: said better by others
- komali2 9y agoThe difference is that it's suspected that boxers and NFL players actually receive more head injuries because of the padding, whereas the lack of padding on hands and heads means people's heads aren't being bobbed around too much, either because it hurts too much to hit heads as hard or because the cushions aren't acting as springs.
- orasis 9y ago16 year MMA and jiu jitsu practitioner here. The secret of success at MMA is learning how to control your opponent in ways that protects yourself. This is what the Gracie family was proving when they created the UFC. Modern fighters such as Damien Maia and Ryan Hall are taking virtually no damage in their fights. As you learn to control your opponent the sport actually becomes very safe - far safer than snowboarding, mountain biking, etc. I haven't taken any serious blows in years.
- aaron-lebo 9y agoNever would have guessed that. Very interesting.
- tcoff91 9y agoDamien Maia barely deals or takes any damage, he just effortlessly takes people to the ground, chokes them out, and they tap and both walk away fine. It's magnificent to watch.
- orasis 9y agoThis is why I still find jiu jitsu so beautiful - it requires a basic level of skill to beat someone's ass, but it's another thing entirely to control them so well that inflicting damage becomes optional.
- eeks 9y agoMMA is to martial art what modern warfare is to the art of war: achieving supremacy, regardless of the means. A testimony of our times.
- brookside 9y agoWhen was this earlier genteel era, exactly?
- eeks 9y agoEastern martial art forms epitomize this "genteel" era. In the western world, it officially ended with the 2nd world war when civilian targets were acceptable, but the ships was sailed already by the first world war. Of course, we can always go back to pre-civilized societies to justify barbaric behavior.
- brookside 9y agoIn the pre-World War Western world we were on a massive genocidal race to divide up the lands of those "pre-civilized" societies.
- maxerickson 9y ago"Civilized" armies have always been pretty awful to the civilians in places they invaded. Rape. Murder. Pillaging. Pretty much everywhere, during every war.
- eeks 9y agoI agree, but that's beside the original point. There is a moral difference between raping and pillaging a defeated foe and leveling an entire civilian city as part of a war strategy (examples: Hiroshima, Nagasaki, Dresden, Oradour sur Glane, etc...).
- maxerickson 9y agoBurning cities is practically a human tradition.
- oblio 9y agoI see that the article is new, but isn't the actual story older? I remember seeing something like this a few years ago. Edit: Ah, there it is: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gEDaCIDvj6I https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gEDaCIDvj6I Not exactly the same thing, but the same principle :)
- dagw 9y agoYou're probably thinking of a similar event that happened in Japan a few years ago where a "kiai master" claiming a 200-0 record challenged an MMA fighter. The actual video (it's on YouTube) is really quite sad. It opens with a clip of him 'sparring' with his students and it just the most compliant thing you have ever seem. His students are literally throwing themselves onto the ground as soon as he gets close to them, clearly feeding his delusion. Then the real fight happens and the 'master' just looks so lost and confused when he realizes his techniques have absolutely no effect. At the end of the day it's just a video of a very delusional old man getting punched in the face and having no idea what just happened.
- oblio 9y agoWell, the current display is not much better in my opinion... Xu is right, if you're presenting your "craft" as something you do for health reasons, great. If you're presenting it as something which should save your life in a dangerous situation... then that's a problem.
- jupiter90000 9y agoI could have sworn I saw the exact video associated with the article at least 2 years ago (same checkered floor and all). The fight is said to have taken place on April 27, so unless that's wrong I am having really strong deja vu.
- dagw 9y agoYou might have seen this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gEDaCIDvj6I https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gEDaCIDvj6I It's basically the same thing (in Japan) and has been making the rounds on and off for the past several years
- serg_chernata 9y agoI'm so confused. If the point of traditional arts is: “It’s not about really hurting. It’s about giving your opponent ‘face.’" Why did Wei Lei agree to this bout in the first place? Why does Mr. Xu now have to go into hiding and be ashamed of himself? Sometimes this world makes no sense.
- eeks 9y agoIt's about honor, respect, and sportsmanship. When Mr. Xu realized the superiority of his martial art form, he should have behaved himself in a more dignified manner: let his superiority show without giving his opponent a beating.
- serg_chernata 9y agoNot sure if you're being sarcastic. How exactly would he do that?
- ItendToDisagree 9y agoHaven't you ever seen a Kung Fu flick? This is an entire trope.
- self_assembly 9y agoBy not continuing to pummel him when he is on the ground. I don't know what could compel someone to continue hitting a person's head as he lays helpless on the ground (the opponent was basically curled up in the fetal position). At that point it just seems like the fighter gets some sort of sick enjoyment from hurting the other person.
- echlebek 9y agoThe referee is supposed to stop the fight when one of the fighters becomes unable to defend himself.
- 9y ago
- iorrus 9y agoThere are many different types of Tai Chi. I've never heard of "thunder style" before. The real people and I've met them do not enter competitions like this.
- tcoff91 9y agoIt's good that they don't, because they would get beat decisively. I shudder when thinking of how brutal it would be to watch Jon Jones destroy some poor clueless Tau Chi practitioner who thought they had a chance.
- iorrus 9y agoTrust me there are people out there who are the real deal. This guy is no 'tai chi' master.
- tcoff91 9y agoThere is no real deal to Tai Chi. The fact of the matter is that a Thai Chi fighter has less tools in their arsenal than the best MMA fighters. The traditional martial arts that are actually effective have already been incorporated into MMA. Jujitsu, Muay Thai, Wrestling, even some Tae Kwon Doe, Karate, these have all made inroads. But nobody makes it far these days in MMA knowing only one form. Even if the best tai chi guy could hold his own on the feet, the MMA fighter would just go for a takedown or pull guard and the tai chi guy would not have the tools to defend. There is not a single person who practices Tai Chi who has anywhere close to the breadth of martial arts mastery that someone like Demetrious Johnson has.
- iorrus 9y agoDo you practice Tai Chi? Do you know anything about it? I do and I've met serious people who can do some incredible things. These people are serious and don't go into the ring with some self promoting idiot.
- 9y ago
- mankyd 9y agoThe closing paragraph: > “The key difference between what Mr. Xu does and martial arts is that martial arts isn’t a competitive sport,’’ he said. “It’s not about really hurting. It’s about giving your opponent ‘face.’ And Mr. Xu’s style is about beating your opponent to near death.” What does that person think the "martial" in martial arts means?
- ceejayoz 9y ago> What does that person think the "martial" in martial arts means? I'm sure they're fully aware of what "martial" means, as well as "arts". Combining the two gets you combat-inspired art. Just as an opera singer might not actually be great at fighting demons, a martial artist isn't necessarily all that great at combat.
- chikei 9y agoThe only problem is, chinese martial art keep claiming that they're great at combat. When they quote the "art" part, generally they just want an excuse to say that "it's not we martial art not as good as modern stuff like MMA. We're just sparing people."
- ceejayoz 9y agoOh, that's certainly delusional. As a kid, I learned a martial art, and looking back it's clear to me it was much more use as meditation than combat training.
- brbrodude 9y agoI think that's a modern interpretation of what "art" is. It used to be seem as something much closer to 'craft', or something you devote to learning and putting in practice decades to attain mastery and something like that. So martial arts would be really the craft and art of fighting, killing, defending, war and etc. I'd suppose the admiration that people took in what the 'artmen'/'craftsmen' discovered and became capable of doing spawned, in turn, what is commonly tried to be pinned down as 'art', today. My thesis on the OP is just that tradition and 'show' took over the chinese martial arts, then they got practiced and studied as something on the sky instead of practical art, and so it now loses to the more pragmatic martial art of today(that is, ignoring the spiritual aspect of it). But imagine centuries ago how much someone with training on the traditional martial arts could kick way more ass and protect his ground compared to a nobody. Even today someone without any training will most certainly have very little chance against a one trained in 'traditional martial arts', it's just not so specialized. Interesting to note that Bruce Lee on his later years was making his own martial art that was meant to be practical and raw, there's various quotes of him talking about that, maybe the guys could pick that up.
- spuz 9y ago"Are you not entertained?"
- Tharkun 9y agoMore like "are you not trained?".
- lightedman 9y agoMost people on the streets could tell you most "Traditional Martial Arts" are fluff. Hasn't been one TKD, KF, or MTKB practitioner in my hood that hasn't had their face handed to them in a real street fight by someone that doesn't care what you do - they're going to step in and HIT you, plain and simple.
- hprotagonist 9y agoI am reminded of Musashi's thoughts in the Book of 5 Rings, which are approximately "Kendo is a spiritual practice of self discipline, the way-of-the-sword. Kenjutsu is the skill of killing people with a sharp bit of metal. It is important not to conflate the two."
- wnevets 9y agoThere are some great videos of these liars getting their asses handed to them by actual skilled fighters.
- csours 9y agohttps://youtu.be/V6RrxTBdJs4?t=90 https://youtu.be/V6RrxTBdJs4?t=90 Direct link to actual fight.
- panglott 9y agoInteresting summary text: "Prior to the bout, MMA fighter Xu had criticized traditional martial arts for being outdated and “a lie” without combat purposes, strongly insulting Tai-Chi in particular. In response Wei challenged him to a duel. The stage was set in Chengdu, China in front of a large crowd with a referee and MC."
- deleted 9y ago[deleted]
- matz1 9y agoWait, so who is losing in this fight ?
- tdb7893 9y agoReally this article mirrors the overall disagreement in the martial arts community where many people think that the best way to practice martial arts is through sparring and pressure testing against legitimate opponents. In my practical experience (having done a few different traditional martial arts) I've actually come to a similar conclusion in that all the martial arts I've considered effective have practised with some sort of "aliveness" in their training. I think as long as traditional martial artists aren't being trained in a more robust manner they will just keep getting hammered.
- DiffEq 9y agoOnly the abandonment of reason could have caused anybody to expect a different outcome.
- orasis 9y agoBlack belt in Gracie Jiu Jitsu here. I thought this debate was settled decisively by the Gracie family and the UFC in the 90s, but apparently the Chinese missed the memo. Delusions are painful to see through especially when they're propping up the ego. Collective delusion even more so. What if everything around you Isn't quite as it seems What if all the world you used to know Is an elaborate dream? And if you look at your reflection Is that all you want it to be? What if you could look right through the cracks Would you find yourself—find yourself afraid to see?" - Trent Reznor
- gambler 9y agoThe arrogance of BJJ practitioners truly knows no limits.
- orasis 9y agoArrogance? Or matter-of-factness from sparring and testing the skills on a daily basis? I can see how it's hard to tell the difference. Do you train?
- r00fus 9y agoDoes sparring include striking someone when they're down? I think that's the crux of the matter here. There are a dozen better ways to subdue someone who's in a prone position. As a Jiujitsu student that part made me feel ashamed.
- orasis 9y agoThe better you get at jiu jitsu, the less damage you'll need to do to control your opponent. Slaps can be effective to get them to open up for the submission - clean, no damage done, and they are forced to psychologically give up, which makes the dominance more definitive.
- gambler 9y agoSparring has nothing to do with claiming that everyone outside of BJJ/MMA circle is delusional. You response only highlights the problem with your attitude.
- throwaway0444 9y agoI'm going to guess this is an outrage in China because it's essentially a symbol of 'Western forces' beating the hell out of China. And nationalism in China is at an all-time high because their economy is collapsing on too much debt, trump just gave China an ultimatum in 100 days to fix the trade imbalance, the corrupt communist party is losing control and have to resort to brain-washing.
- carrycon 9y agoDoubt it. Bruce Lee basically said the same thing and he's Chinese. This is more like the NYTimes trying to spin a story.
- paradite 9y agoYour comment until the "nationalism" part is actually pretty on point, similar to some Chinese people's view on this matter. However, the rest went off pretty quickly.
- awjr 9y agoI think the interesting thing here is that I suspect many practitioners of martial arts take the 'art' very very seriously treating combat as an eloquent dance. MMA is a style that takes all the deadliest aspects of multiple martial art styles and brutally hones them to kill the opponent fast. It's very effective. I vaguely remember outrage when an artist made art by cutting up other artists paintings. I see similarities here.
- wnevets 9y ago>I think the interesting thing here is that I suspect many practitioners of martial arts take the 'art' very very seriously treating combat as an eloquent dance. or they're just con men tricking people into following their useless bullshit
- viraptor 9y agoWhat's wrong with art? Not every runner trains to compete world class. Not every dancer wants to join competitions. Tai Chi is still popular with people who wouldn't be able to fight and gives them joy - even though the moves do come from fighting stances. You just need the keep enough sense not to challenge other people to fight you. I don't see a reason to call this bullshit.
- dagw 9y agoWhat's wrong with art? Absolutely nothing. It's great. The problem is that far too many McDojos are offering exercise while claiming to teach deadly fighting techniques. The problem is not the art, it's the delusion.
- deleted 9y ago[deleted]
- Tharkun 9y agoI fail to see the controversy or even the surprise. Fighting is a skill like any other: learnt by trial and error. Tai Chi's curriculum, for all its benefits and martial origins, does not include fighting. The article talks about judo, karate etc in the same breath. Most commercialized/popularized martial arts face the same issue: they are tightly regulated and "exhibition" driven. The rules of judo competition, for instance, disallow large parts of the judo curriculum. As a result those parts are rarely taught, and only taught to very high ranking folks. This causes judo to lose part of what makes it a martial art. Given enough time, it might (d?)evolve into something akin to Tai Chi.
- rsync 9y ago"Tai Chi's curriculum, for all its benefits and martial origins, does not include fighting." This is not really true ... You are correct that all Tai Chi that you see being practiced and essentially all Tai Chi practitioners are basically doing standing yoga exercises. However, there are people studying Tai Chi stances and movements and their application to "real" fighting. I am very, very much opposed to the bullshit in martial arts and I am happy to see frauds exposed ... but as a mixed martial arts and BJJ player, I do find value in Tai Chi movements and practice - and not solely for relaxation and meditation.
- rrggrr 9y ago>“I’ve lost everything, my career and everything,” he said in a message circulating online. “I think many people misunderstand me. I’m fighting fraudulence, but now I’ve become the target.” Its often the same for INFOSEC researchers and hobbyists. Change is resisted everywhere.
- plinkplonk 9y agoThere is an update on this at reddit https://www.reddit.com/r/kungfu/comments/69djj5/yesterdays_update_on_the_xu_incident/ https://www.reddit.com/r/kungfu/comments/69djj5/yesterdays_u... Apparently the powers that be have decided to take down the MMA 'threat' to China's classical martial arts. There was a report on Jack Ma supporting the Tai Chi "side" but I cant' find it now. EDIT: Here it is titled "Kung fu fan Jack Ma weighs in on tai chi vs. MMA fight" https://news.cgtn.com/news/3d636a4d30637a4d/share.html https://news.cgtn.com/news/3d636a4d30637a4d/share.html
- gambler 9y agoPretty horrible response if true. I understand why some disciplines prefer not to respond to such challenges, but persecuting the challenger is absolutely the wrong thing to do.
- carrycon 9y agoI think the NYTimes is either exaggerating things or they are trying to sell a narrative. "China" has always known that wushu is just for show and that Tai Chi is more like yoga rather than a fighting style. Besides, Bruce Lee already dispelled all the myths surrounding "traditional kung fu" a long time ago. This isn't some new concept that was introduced by MMA.
- deleted 9y ago[deleted]
- panglott 9y agoFighting styles are always geared to the situations people expect them to be in. MMA is a combat sport based on unarmed street fights and holding to the ideal of as quickly and effectively subduing an opponent. Fencing, for example, is not aimed at battlefield combat between feudal warriors wearing mail and carrying heavy weapons, but unarmored civilians engaged in honor duels to first blood. Traditional Japanese martial arts frequently descend from Edo-period traditions re-organized in the Meiji era, and often focus on weapons training. Kendou for example, still focuses on heavily-armored warriors fighting with swords. I don't think that many people think this is preparation for a realistic contemporary combat situation so much as it is lived respect for tradition and knowledge. Traditional martial arts frequently have other goals, as with Morihei Ueshiba and aikido. MMA tends to market itself as "real fighting", but it carries its own assumptions about the conditions of fighting. It would be as ridiculous to pit an MMA fighter against an armed and armored Japanese kendoist as against a WWII-era GI with a Tommy gun.
- splawn 9y agoThis was my exact thought. Who cares if in the end its all just a contrived game. In reality, any 10 year old with less than an hr of training and a firearm could "win" a fight against a black belt of whatever.
- panglott 9y agoI don't necessarily think that either—pistols can be a lot harder to use in combat than people think, such as when your opponent can close and grapple before you can draw. Sports and games are organized by their rules, and combat sports are no different. No one should think that sumo is good combat training—the loser is the first to step outside the ring or touch the ground with any part of their body other than the foot. But it is a great sport that requires very specialized training, with some exceptions. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Takanoyama_Shuntar%C5%8D https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Takanoyama_Shuntar%C5%8D But this means that, if practitioners claim that these are skills that can increase one's personal safety, it's important to test these conditions and assumptions. MMA fighters specialize to win MMA-style fights...but what about outside of those assumptions?
- paradite 9y agoAs a native Chinese speaker, I just want to point out that this paragraph: > An article by Xinhua, the state news agency, called Mr. Xu a “crazy guy,” saying that the fight had caused people to question whether Chinese martial arts were of any use and even to ask, “What exactly are traditional Chinese martial arts?” Is a complete misinterpretation of the original sentence cited in the article: > 综合格斗狂人徐晓冬和太极人士雷雷的视频引发了人们对中国武术的好奇和关注，中国武术到底是什么？有实战性吗？中国武术应该如何更好地推广普及？ 1. "狂人" is literally "crazy guy", but mostly used as a compliment to say someone is extremely good, hardworking or dedicated in something, in this case M.M.A. 2 "What exactly are traditional Chinese martial arts?" is also taken out of context, it is used in the introduction paragraph to guide the readers to the detailed descriptions below, and has nothing to do with the existential crisis of martial arts whatsoever. NYT employees, if you are reading this, please get someone better in Chinese to handle the translation and interpretation. Edit: And this, is not how you cite your sources from weibo: > <a href="http://weibo.com/login.php">message http://weibo.com/login.php">message circulating online</a>
- yeezul 9y agoJournalist: But that URL fine for me. /s
- madhadron 9y agoThis is the tip of a very large, complicated subject. Start by reading https://www.nononsenseselfdefense.com/four_focuses.html https://www.nononsenseselfdefense.com/four_focuses.html. Here we have two different ends conflicting. MMA is a sport, along with boxing, K5 and sansho and judo. Many of the Chinese stylists today are carrying on a cultural or demonstration tradition. From that point of view, a martial arts instructor can be very competent at his job while not producing effective sport fighters. For example, many kids karate schools are very effective daycares. A seniors tai qi club may be an excellent way to get people moving and prevent injuries from falling. An MMA gym is a great place for young men to work through their testosterone driven haze. Why can't a martial arts school be treated like a Go studio or a chess club? And if you depart from fitness for purpose, then you have problems. SEAL sentry removal techniques taught at an MMA gym or a kids karate school would be a disaster. A sport fighter teaching MMA at a seniors tai qi club is going to find a very uninterested audience. It goes the other way, too. A sport fighter training police is a problem because he is probably unaware of the laws governing use of force. So what Xu has done is the equivalent of a kid from the boxing club going and beating up the chess club.
- dagw 9y agoSo what Xu has done is the equivalent of a kid from the boxing club going and beating up the chess club. The part you're missing is that this whole thing kicked off because kids from the chess club where going around claiming that chess was a better basis for fighting than boxing.
- badloginagain 9y agoI won't wade into the "MMA better than TMA" argument, but I do want to deconstruct why the Tai Chi Practitioner (TCP) lost that fight. You'll notice when they first engage, the TCP does a pretty good job blocking the incoming strikes. He doesn't appear to get hit right-out and, as expected with Tai Chi, yields to the attack (backing up). The problem is the attacker doesn't let up, a concept called 'Holding down the pillow'. I think the reason he didn't handle that MMA style of charging attack is because (in my experience) Tai Chi isn't taught that way. Applications are taught as part of a 1/2/3 strike combination, then resetting. Rare is the case where you defend against 3+ attacks. There's a number of reasons for this, but suffice to say its something that probably should be incorporated into their training. As a final note, the problem of 'McDojos' has long been known. But I would say there's an equal problem of MMA schools where it's more about dominating new students than teaching. Martial arts is really quite hard, and some people want to learn how to look cool/graceful/powerful than actually learn how to defend oneself.
- mdekkers 9y ago...Tai Chi isn't taught that way.... Rendering it useless as an effective fighting technique.
- badloginagain 9y agoNot practicing against a single type of attack does not equate to it being useless against any fighting technique. You haven't given me much to work with in terms expressing your point of view beyond trolling, next time try to express yourself a bit better.
- mdekkers 9y agoAn observation that doesn't match your worldview isn't trolling, which by some definitions is taken to mean: Trolling is trying to get a rise out of someone. Forcing them to respond to you, either through wise-crackery, posting incorrect information, asking blatantly stupid questions, or other foolishness. which looks a lot like what you are doing. Having gotten that out of the way, it depends on why you practice any kind of Martial Art. If you are a "keep fit/sports/internal balance" practitioner, your position has some limited merit. If you are the "self-defense/offence" practitioner, your position is vapid bullshit as the only things that counts is self preservation and winning the fight, in that order of importance. Yours is the type of argument that would go down well in a dark alley (or a ring, see the linked video): "VICTIM: "Oh, you can't do that to me - I didn't practice that!" ATTACKER: "Apologies good sir, which method of defense did you practice?" Given the video above was mostly about a Tai Chi Master saying "I can deal with your uppity MMA" and him subsequently being swiftly and brutally proven wrong, I'd say my original posts has ample merit. Further explanation should only be required for the dense and the trolls. There, did I express myself to your obviously exacting standards? :)
- pb000 9y agoWing tsun close combat techniques are better suited to defend against the shown mma attack. Overall, a better professional at his forte style beat tge less proficient regardless of the technique though. Simple as that.
- deleted 9y ago[deleted]
- gambler 9y agoInterview with the MMA guy. Quite interesting: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cQxxt0H8DJM https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cQxxt0H8DJM
- AKifer 9y agoBruce Lee foresaw it 50 years ago