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U.S. likely to expand airline laptop ban to Europe: government officials
- r00fus 9y agoHow is this even feasible? If Obama did this he'd be impeached almost immediately.
- ericcumbee 9y agoyou would be surprised how much the appetite for Security Theater and looking strong on security outweighs partisan politics.
- bertil 9y agoThis sounds increasingly counter-effective or unenforceable.
- imartin2k 9y agoYep travel to the US from European already is extremely cumbersome due to all the checks and long security procedures. This would not only annoy travelers but put immense pressure on the airlines flying between both continents. They must be unbelievably pissed.
- unethical_ban 9y agoMaybe it's time for ships to come back in vogue.
- hackuser 9y ago> all the checks and long security procedures Could you provide more detail?
- imartin2k 9y agoSure. It varies a bit depending on the airline and airport that you depart from, but this is how it looks like: 1. ESTA application online form before the actual travel for those who don't need a Visa (most EU countries e.g.) with extensive range of questions, even about parents, social media profiles (still optional) and so on. You do only need to apply again once every few years, but before a flight you need to update the flight information (afaik). 2. A 5 minute "interview" at check in/baggage drop (or otherwise at the gate) in which a (contracted) security personnel asks you about your trip while you wait in line. You might hear comments such as "oh so you are traveling alone to place XY? That is uncommon...". "Where do you live?" "Do you speak language XYZ?". Some airlines don't do this interview, but United does it always and I assume all U.S. airlines do it. 3. Additional security screening at the gate for selected people (apparently by random choice), can go quick, or might take longer. They take an additional look in your luggage. Some airports even have a second official security check & and scanner infrastructure near the designated gates for U.S. flights (I have experienced this only once though, in Munich. Not sure how common it is). 4. After arrival, immigration procedure (even for those who only want to transit). The waiting time for non-residents is usually 1-2 hours until you reach the booth. The immigration officer asks a couple of questions (or not). If you are suspicious, you are being send to 2nd check (I can't speak about that one, hasn't happened to me - but that's the stuff we often read about in the media). 5. Customs. Some people are chosen for detailed luggage checks. The decisions seems to be made by the immigration officer (or his/her computer system), because it is based on the type of signs they write on your customs card. If you are transiting, 6: Rechecking the luggage, a new security check to reach the gate. In most countries, there is a dedicated security check and logistics infrastructure for transiting passengers, which makes the process simple. On U.S. airports, you start again on square 1, as if you would just begin your travel, which means you might have to go to another terminal and queue up again for security. If you don't have airline frequent flyer status and thus access to the fast lane, this can take another hour (depending on the time of the day, airport and the number of TSA staff available). A 2 1/2 hour connection in EWR gets extremely tight for example, but airlines keep selling tickets with even shorter connecting times. Overall, it is quite an ordeal. And I don't even belong to an ethnical or religious group who might be specifically targeted. For them, the stress level must be even higher.
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- sokoloff 9y agoI fly 10-12x / year between Europe and US. I don't find the security checks particularly lengthy nor cumbersome. (I have TSA pre-check for the way to the EU and on the way back, PRG, ZRH, AMS, and CDG are all fairly reasonable security wait wise.)
- viraptor 9y agoWhat do you mean by unenforceable? If the rules are passed to airports in Europe, it's going to be enforced. Same thing happened with liquids.
- differentView 9y ago>unenforceable What part do you think would be unenforceable?
- enraged_camel 9y agoThis is guaranteed to piss off the business community. I can think of two possible reasons: 1- The administration is trying to distract people from the Comey scandal 2- The administration expects the current ban to be challenged in court and defeated, so they are expanding it to include non-Muslim countries We live in interesting times.
- Analemma_ 9y agoI'm going with 2. It's honestly hilarious how ineptly the administration is trying to pretend this isn't a Muslim ban. There was a thread on Reddit a couple days ago about how all Trump's verbatim "we will ban Muslims" quotes have been scrubbed from his campaign site... except you can still see them with the right combination of URL parameters.
- misingnoglic 9y agoCan you find it?
- Analemma_ 9y agohttps://np.reddit.com/r/politics/comments/6a0tqp/donald_trumps_muslim_ban_disappears_from_website/dhaxxz8/ https://np.reddit.com/r/politics/comments/6a0tqp/donald_trum...
- deleted 9y ago[deleted]
- redthrowaway 9y agoOr 3: the administration had nothing to do with it, and it's an actual security measure based on actual terrorist threats. Which might explain why Canada and the UK (you know, Five Eyes countries with whom the US shares intelligence) also did the same thing. Seriously, Trump Derangement Syndrome is getting a bit nutty. http://www.news1130.com/2017/03/20/ban-aimed-at-electronics-in-cabins-of-some-us-bound-flights/ http://www.news1130.com/2017/03/20/ban-aimed-at-electronics-...
- Sevii 9y agoGuess we won't be doing international business with the EU....
- btilly 9y agoWait, what? We're putting laptops in luggage because we're afraid that they are bombs. But laptops stored closely together in luggage with pressure changes can explode..and we don't know how to handle that. In the name of safety we're introducing a restriction that makes people and airplanes less safe!
- devoply 9y agoWell if you think about it, it makes sense. Something could be potentially improvised by a passenger. But to make a device, you would open yourself to detection via X-Rays. However, I think that the rest of the world should return the favor and ban all laptops from US incoming flights. Just as a quid pro quo. Soon though hopefully solid state cells will come into play and this will no longer be a problem. China for instance has banned shipping all lithium ion batteries via China Post and searches actively for them... as it's a risk. You have to ship them specially declared which is pretty expensive.
- jedberg 9y ago> I think that the rest of the world should return the favor and ban all laptops from US incoming flights. I mean, that will basically be the case anyway. If I leave the US, I'm not taking a laptop since I can't bring it back.
- walterbell 9y ago> On the operational side, measures such as stopping online check-in for U.S. bound flights or ensuring U.S. flights depart from a dedicated part of terminals are among ideas being mulled, although no decisions have yet been taken. How would stopping online check-in help with laptops? Wouldn't a laptop ban be enforced during security screening of hand luggage?
- viraptor 9y agoYes, but it probably costs the airport/airline less to tell everybody that they can't take laptop in hand luggage in person, than to deal with all cases of people trying to take laptops through security and being sent back. (Speculation) We've had the liquids and sharp tools ban for years now and the bins at security are still full of them. You wouldn't throw out your laptop though.
- k-mcgrady 9y agoI guess it would force people to the check-in desk where they could be asked 'do you have a laptop in your carry-on?'. If they don't know about the ban this gives them a chance to put it in hold luggage. If it wasn't noticed until security it may be a bit of a nightmare.
- walterbell 9y agoThat question could be asked during online check-in, especially if the passenger indicates they are traveling without hold luggage. There is already an online check-in question for hazardous materials.
- ghaff 9y agoWhere it will receive the same close scrutiny to TOSs on websites are.
- walterbell 9y agoNot comparable. You often need passport information for online check-in and the entire experience is already tied to legal/immigration requirements. If you're doing online check-in, your goal is to avoid the time cost of agent check-in lines, so it's worth the effort to carefully enter all mandatory data.
- openmosix 9y agoWe have offices in Europe and US. While today we travel multiple times a quarter between the offices, I can see how people will not want to cross US borders no more than once a year. I also wonder how this (plus all the shenanigans on borders control, immigrations restrictions, etc) will affect budget and headcount allocations for international companies. I think we will see an expansion of companies building R&D centers abroad and call it a day.
- letitgo12345 9y agoSeems like Canadian and Mexican airports are about to get a lot busier!
- nhebb 9y ago> DHS spokesman Dave Lapan said Kelly "hasn't made a decision but we continue to evaluate the threat environment and have engaged in discussions with airline representatives and other stakeholders about the threat." So, our homeland security department has acknowledged that there is a threat and will discuss it with the airlines. This has been transformed into "likely" by the writer, and the "some EU" countries part has been expanded to "Europe" in the headline. This is why I'm skeptical about so many things I read in the news.
- matt4077 9y agoFrom the article: [...] officials briefed on the matter said on Wednesday. [...] Six U.S. and European officials said they expect the U.S. Department of Homeland Security (DHS) to make an announcement but declined to say when. This makes pretty clear that the article isn't based on the single-sentence comment by the spokesman. This is why journalists think so many of their readers lack the skills to read the ingredient list for bottled water.
- nhebb 9y ago> [...] officials briefed on the matter said on Wednesday. In context: > is reviewing how to ensure lithium batteries stored in luggage holds do not explode in midair, officials briefed on the matter said on Wednesday. "reviewing" is the key word. > [...] make an announcement But we won't know what the policy will be until they make the announcement. There is nothing in those two excerpts to indicate that this isn't speculation by the writer. > This is why journalists think so many of their readers lack the skills to read the ingredient list for bottled water. That was petty.
- matt4077 9y agoIn even more context: "The Trump administration is likely to expand a ban on laptops on commercial aircraft to include some European countries, but is reviewing how to ensure lithium batteries stored in luggage holds do not explode in midair, officials briefed on the matter said on Wednesday." That means, literally, that officials said: "['We are' or 'The Trump administration is'] likely to expand a ban on laptops on commercial aircraft to include some European countries" The uncertainty expressed by 'likely' is just that: uncertainty. It's not speculation by the journalist, who is actually just repeating what his sources told him. To criticise such reporting means you will never hear about any policy until it becomes law. That would mean nobody would ever get a chance to weigh in until after the fact. > There is nothing in those two excerpts to indicate that this isn't speculation by the writer. What's even more important is what's outside those two paragraphs: namely the name "Reuters", and the authors' byline: "Mark Hosenball and David Shepardson". The are institutions/people, and to a certain extend the whole system is build on the idea of trust, in the same way that you trust the neighbour you've known for years to water your plants when you're away.
- mmcconnell1618 9y agoSounds like a detection technology problem. The article says it is very difficult to tell the difference between dense items on X-ray (i.e. battery v. plastic explosive). Anyone have suggestions for the TSA on better scanning technology?
- ac29 9y agoChecked luggage goes through a CT scanner which is much better.
- s73ver 9y agoSo Trump basically just doesn't want anyone to come to the US?
- nhaehnle 9y agoYeah... no. I've had a laptop stolen out of checked-in luggage together with other valuables. Seems like the US really doesn't want to be visited by anybody anymore.
- mavdi 9y agoI was forced to put my laptop in luggage. It was shattered to pieces on arrival.
- petecox 9y agoSounds like a business opportunity. Airport A: Declare laptop at pre-checkin where security declares it 'not a bomb' and seals it in a rugged case that only authorised officers can unlock. Receive baggage token. Airport B: Take token to collection counter and retrieve laptop.
- tajen 9y agoIn other words: You pay the airline to transport luggage, then another company for them not to break/irradiate/magnetize/flood things inside your luggage. I'm still at the age where changing the world seems more appealing, but I bet by my sixties I'll start such a business.
- imron 9y agoWhat they want is to be able to scan/image your hard drive. Not every passenger, but as you've mentioned, it's trivial for people to get at the contents of your luggage and for TSA agents with the keys to your TSA luggage locks it's even easier still. If this ban is ever extended I will likely never consider flying to the states. I can only hope it doesn't infect the rest of the airline industry like the water and liquid theatre did.
- tajen 9y agoAww man, if only an airline could target the "no-bullshit" niche... Minimal screening, come on board with water and even soap and knifes if you need to, just be aware that the liability of the company for murder/piracy is 100k. But of course the major problem is the TSA, not the airline.
- gumby 9y agoDHS has already made it clear that you don't want to enter the USA with any electronics if you value your privacy so perhaps this is a blessing in disguise. It reminds me of the pathetic pack of attorneys general who shutdown Backpage and Craigslist's hookup page, simply making it harder to find and intervene in human trafficking. DHS is simply making it harder for them to find bad guys. As if that were their goal.
- Taniwha 9y agoah - but when you "enter" the US you only have your carry on luggage, before you hit the baggage carousel, how are they going to make you unlock your laptop for them when it's not yet in your possession?
- dang 9y agoThere will be plenty to discuss if it actually happens, but in the meantime this is just a leak of a possible announcement. That's not substantive and therefore it's off topic here. "We might make an announcement" is even weaker than "We will make an announcement", a gold standard of weakness to begin with. Notice the words 'some', 'likely', and 'but' in the first sentence. This article walks back its own headline, like the previous one (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14311073 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14311073).
- matt4077 9y ago"Likely" indicates a >50% chance. There are actual meetings planned, this week. This is not "fake news", or some "internet rumor". The actual plan is seriously considered, and only the risks of Li-Ion batteries in cargo holds is holding it up, and possibly pushback from the airlines and countries concerned. This is valuable information because it's much easier to stop something like this before it's officially announced. At that time it's already implemented, requires the same march through the bureaucracy to be repealed, has consequences for the administration's reputation, may invite lawsuits if airlines and airports have started spending money etc etc.
- pvg 9y agoThis is valuable information because it's much easier to stop something like this before it's officially announced. It might be but HN is not really focused on delivering timely warnings to potential travelers.
- dang 9y agoIf internet forums can affect that process, you'd be better off putting such energy into larger ones whose mandates it fits. This isn't that kind that of site. There are always urgent things going on that are more important than almost everything here. Letting HN be swayed by those means giving up on the idea of a site dedicated to intellectual curiosity, and that would be a shame. Look at it this way: if the story happens, we'll have a thread about it. It will burn hot with toxic fumes (bad for HN) but the substantive aspects (good for HN) will hopefully outweigh that, making it worth the hit. But since the story hasn't happened yet, why burn all those health points for none of the gain?
- deleted 9y ago[deleted]
- Oletros 9y agoThat measure, if implemented, will boost USA business and tourism, isn't?
- Mankhool 9y agoFlying to North America from Europe? Please fly to Canada first and enjoy using your laptop onboard. Then take a short hop to your US destination on which you can also use your laptop since your flight originated in Canada.