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That's begging the question. Unless you state what you think are desireable outcomes, your statement means nothing Tautologically speaking, your statement jus

That's begging the question. Unless you state what you think are desireable outcomes, your statement means nothing Tautologically speaking, your statement just says "Do the things that we think are profitable."

speedplane 9y ago
It's not so complicated. The article is about jail and impulse control, so the desired "outcome" is to stay out of jail and the "value", if you'd even call it that, is to temper momentary impulses to foster longer term thinking. Except in extreme cases, just spending time with someone and caring about that person gets you most of the way there, regardless of the specific values you're trying to impart.
- jimmywanger 9y ago
  Hence you are begging the question. Why is tempering momentary impulses fostering long term thinking a good outcome? If you really want the conclusion, a shot to the back of the head tempers momentary impulses forever.
  - Banthum 9y ago
    This is kind of obtuse. If you want to regress forever you can quickly reach the bedrock question of, "Why do anything?" And if you want to drill hard enough, yes, there is no absolute answer to that. We get it. But, back in reality, most of us have a general handle on outcomes that are good and bad for humans, and what people want day to day and for society. Safety is better than danger. Health is better than disease. Joy is better than pain. Choice is better than slavery. And so on. If you want to have a hyper-abstract philosophical debate on bedrock values or is/ought, you should start a discussion that is targeting that question.
    - komali2 9y ago
      Those "bedrock values" you call "bedrock" are not as such at all. What about those that get joy from pain? What about brothel owners that highly value the slavery that gets them their women? What about terrorists cells that desire chaos above safety?
coldtea 9y ago
>Unless you state what you think are desireable outcomes, your statement means nothing Only if we start as some kind of visitors from Mars who don't know the earthly ways. Else, the "desirable outcomes" are pretty much agreed upon, at least for most people: keep mentally and physically healthy, study, get a good job, support your family, be good to others, don't be a criminal (as in TFA), etc.
- ionised 9y ago
  Sometimes the 'criminal' isn't the problem, but the law that made them a 'criminal'.
- jimmywanger 9y ago
  Your answer kind of reinforces my point. > At least for most people You mean, most people in power/authority, who have a vested interest in keeping the status quo. > study Why is study in and of itself a desireable outcome? That's an activity in service of a goal, not the goal itself. Unless you think that accumulation of knowledge without application is a good/worthy goal. > support your family Do you mean blood family or whoever you married? I fail to see why I should support somebody I married unless I choose to, as they're a person with the ability to support themselves. > be good to others Define "good". > don't be a criminal You mean, don't be a criminal and get caught.
- komali2 9y ago
  >Desirable outcomes are pretty much agreed upon I disagree. > Keep mentally and physically healthy Some families I know argue profit above all things, comfort above all things. Morbidly obese families, for example, do not feel that physical health is an important value. >Get a good job I know families that value finding welfare loopholes to facilitate a non-working lifestyle. >Support your family I know people that very much do not value supporting their family >Be good to others ISIS members do not value being good to non-Muslims. (they do not agree with your values) >Don't be a criminal Members of gangs generally completely disagree with this. Somehow the person you're replying to is being downvoted for suggesting, essentially, that "people believe different things are important." Are we going to seriously argue against that?

speedplane 9y ago

It's not so complicated. The article is about jail and impulse control, so the desired "outcome" is to stay out of jail and the "value", if you'd even call it that, is to temper momentary impulses to foster longer term thinking. Except in extreme cases, just spending time with someone and caring about that person gets you most of the way there, regardless of the specific values you're trying to impart.

jimmywanger 9y ago
Hence you are begging the question. Why is tempering momentary impulses fostering long term thinking a good outcome? If you really want the conclusion, a shot to the back of the head tempers momentary impulses forever.
- Banthum 9y ago
  This is kind of obtuse. If you want to regress forever you can quickly reach the bedrock question of, "Why do anything?" And if you want to drill hard enough, yes, there is no absolute answer to that. We get it. But, back in reality, most of us have a general handle on outcomes that are good and bad for humans, and what people want day to day and for society. Safety is better than danger. Health is better than disease. Joy is better than pain. Choice is better than slavery. And so on. If you want to have a hyper-abstract philosophical debate on bedrock values or is/ought, you should start a discussion that is targeting that question.
  - komali2 9y ago
    Those "bedrock values" you call "bedrock" are not as such at all. What about those that get joy from pain? What about brothel owners that highly value the slavery that gets them their women? What about terrorists cells that desire chaos above safety?

coldtea 9y ago

>Unless you state what you think are desireable outcomes, your statement means nothing Only if we start as some kind of visitors from Mars who don't know the earthly ways. Else, the "desirable outcomes" are pretty much agreed upon, at least for most people: keep mentally and physically healthy, study, get a good job, support your family, be good to others, don't be a criminal (as in TFA), etc.

ionised 9y ago
Sometimes the 'criminal' isn't the problem, but the law that made them a 'criminal'.
jimmywanger 9y ago
Your answer kind of reinforces my point. > At least for most people You mean, most people in power/authority, who have a vested interest in keeping the status quo. > study Why is study in and of itself a desireable outcome? That's an activity in service of a goal, not the goal itself. Unless you think that accumulation of knowledge without application is a good/worthy goal. > support your family Do you mean blood family or whoever you married? I fail to see why I should support somebody I married unless I choose to, as they're a person with the ability to support themselves. > be good to others Define "good". > don't be a criminal You mean, don't be a criminal and get caught.
komali2 9y ago
>Desirable outcomes are pretty much agreed upon I disagree. > Keep mentally and physically healthy Some families I know argue profit above all things, comfort above all things. Morbidly obese families, for example, do not feel that physical health is an important value. >Get a good job I know families that value finding welfare loopholes to facilitate a non-working lifestyle. >Support your family I know people that very much do not value supporting their family >Be good to others ISIS members do not value being good to non-Muslims. (they do not agree with your values) >Don't be a criminal Members of gangs generally completely disagree with this. Somehow the person you're replying to is being downvoted for suggesting, essentially, that "people believe different things are important." Are we going to seriously argue against that?