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Parent's point might be better phrased not by "old people are racist" as "old people don't know they're racist." The biggest difference between old and young p

by ethbro 10y ago

Parent's point might be better phrased not by "old people are racist" as "old people don't know they're racist." The biggest difference between old and young people is depth of experience. The elderly aren't racist because they never met a person of another race: they're racist because that's how they were taught and trained to act towards other races. And I think it's more difficult to argue that "undoing previously held beliefs" (old) is as easy as "forming new beliefs where none exist" (young). Source: Extensive traveling in the rural American south, and I believe psychological findings back up the tendency to cling to preconceptions

laumars 10y ago
You acknowledge that it is more difficult for the older generation to have their beliefs challenged than the younger generation but you fail to address why that it. This is the point I was addressing. Yes there will be an element of human conditioning to racism, however I was not discussing the direct cause of it but rather how said conditioning is often combatted. To discuss an infinite lifespan one would also have to assume good mental and physical health. That would mean that "old age" as we describe it would also be eradicated. This means there's more opportunities to have opinions challenged. It also means peoples outlook might change as well (eg an infinite lifespan might bring around boredom so people might welcome being pushed outside of their comfort zones more often). There's also the question of the maximum capacity of human memory: as we age in an infinite life we might forget some of conditioning we were taught earlier in our lives as new experiences take their place. So the issue I have with both yours and the GP's position is I feel you fail to take into account that old age wouldn't exist (or at least "shouldn't" if we don't want to breed zombies) so we cannot assume the same phycology will apply with people who are 100 but physically and mentally 20 as currently applies with those who are 100 with failing physiology and cognitive functions.
- ethbro 10y ago
  >> "and I believe psychological findings back up the tendency to cling to preconceptions" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confirmation_bias https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confirmation_bias https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Selective_exposure_theory https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Selective_exposure_theory https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cognitive_dissonance https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cognitive_dissonance These are not things that humans do because they're old (and somehow less plastic / capable than the young). They do them because that's how our brains work once they've acquired information. If you're going to argue against current neuroscience and psychology findings and beliefs, then you're welcome to cite some sources. "Good mental and physical health" is necessary but not sufficient for creating as many opportunities to have opinions challenged (as younger people). In the absence of equivalent ability to be challenged and accept new ideas, parent's assertion that a society without death would look very different from our current "each generation overthrows some ideas of the last as they die" seems to stand.
  - laumars 10y ago
    I could counter your point with an article about peer pressure (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peer_pressure https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peer_pressure). For example there might be less stigma about old people dating young people or groups of friends with massively different age ranges due to the infinite life and good health factor allowing more diverse social groups. This would result in groups of people exchanging opinions and being influenced in ways that aren't as common currently. I should stress though that I do feel you're missing my point. I'm not saying people give up attitudes easily. What I'm saying in an infinite life there is infinitely more opportunities for ones preconceptions to be challenged. I'm not saying it's easy for ones preconceptions to be challenged but it does often still happen and thus with an infinite life span there is both significantly more time and significantly more opportunity for this to happen. What I'm suggesting is that where we don't observe significant adaptation in preconceptions within a shorter time scales, we might discover that humans are more capable to adapt over a much longer scale. We might even beg for change just out of pure boredom (eg I doubt many people could stand doing the same job for hundreds of years). Change pushes us outside of our comfort zone, into new social groups, and most importantly, change can often force us to evaluate our preconceptions through personal experience which is far more valuable to reconditioning than debate and 2nd hand reporting (which is what your articles focused on). Ultimately though, and as I said to the GP, this is all speculative. However I would be amazed if infinite life + good health didn't affect human psychology given the massive impact it would have culturally and the significance that mortality, the fear of growing old and ill health, all play in human psychology. There are so many variables that would change (economic, social, psychological, etc) beyond just the numbers on our birthday cakes that I find it weird to assume our lives would just be the same but longer.
    - ethbro 10y ago
      Selective exposure bias and cognitive dissonance absolutely do not only apply to information (in as you said "debate and 2nd hand reporting"). Their effects are equally documented on first hand experience. Two people with difference beliefs experience the same thing and each walk away with their previous beliefs reinforced. I hear and grant your argument ("What I'm suggesting is that where we don't observe significant adaptation in preconceptions within a shorter time scales, we might discover that humans are more capable to adapt over a much longer scale."). But you're seemingly only using that to suggest that there will be one impact (towards more flexibility / change). You're ignoring the other side of the sword: what if more experience only deepens our beliefs because of our hardwired cognitive biases? E.g. if its difficult to overcome 20 years of racist enculturation, then what about 200? The worries I have, and why I bet more on my future than yours, is that the majority of these biases stem from non-conscious processes in our brains. So there's no indication that taking a brain adapted for a 30 year human lifespan and extending it to 200 is going to radically change their physical, biological underpinnings. However, if we gain the technology to indefinitely extend life, it seems probable that we'd also have the technical capability to modify these logical flaws. So it's possible we'd be able to "debias" brains to a greater degree. Or, and I'd actually consider this more unlikely and harder, perhaps our understanding of human psychology and neuroscience will have advanced to the point where we can consciously override our own biases in a more reliable and passive manner (e.g. super mindfulness, Dune-esque psychoconditioning). My main point is that indefinitely extending life and expecting our mammilian, product of evolution brains to just "get it" isn't a bet I'd be willing to take with humankind's culture hanging in the balance.

by ethbro 10y ago

laumars 10y ago

You acknowledge that it is more difficult for the older generation to have their beliefs challenged than the younger generation but you fail to address why that it. This is the point I was addressing. Yes there will be an element of human conditioning to racism, however I was not discussing the direct cause of it but rather how said conditioning is often combatted. To discuss an infinite lifespan one would also have to assume good mental and physical health. That would mean that "old age" as we describe it would also be eradicated. This means there's more opportunities to have opinions challenged. It also means peoples outlook might change as well (eg an infinite lifespan might bring around boredom so people might welcome being pushed outside of their comfort zones more often). There's also the question of the maximum capacity of human memory: as we age in an infinite life we might forget some of conditioning we were taught earlier in our lives as new experiences take their place. So the issue I have with both yours and the GP's position is I feel you fail to take into account that old age wouldn't exist (or at least "shouldn't" if we don't want to breed zombies) so we cannot assume the same phycology will apply with people who are 100 but physically and mentally 20 as currently applies with those who are 100 with failing physiology and cognitive functions.

ethbro 10y ago
>> "and I believe psychological findings back up the tendency to cling to preconceptions" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confirmation_bias https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confirmation_bias https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Selective_exposure_theory https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Selective_exposure_theory https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cognitive_dissonance https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cognitive_dissonance These are not things that humans do because they're old (and somehow less plastic / capable than the young). They do them because that's how our brains work once they've acquired information. If you're going to argue against current neuroscience and psychology findings and beliefs, then you're welcome to cite some sources. "Good mental and physical health" is necessary but not sufficient for creating as many opportunities to have opinions challenged (as younger people). In the absence of equivalent ability to be challenged and accept new ideas, parent's assertion that a society without death would look very different from our current "each generation overthrows some ideas of the last as they die" seems to stand.
- laumars 10y ago
  I could counter your point with an article about peer pressure (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peer_pressure https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peer_pressure). For example there might be less stigma about old people dating young people or groups of friends with massively different age ranges due to the infinite life and good health factor allowing more diverse social groups. This would result in groups of people exchanging opinions and being influenced in ways that aren't as common currently. I should stress though that I do feel you're missing my point. I'm not saying people give up attitudes easily. What I'm saying in an infinite life there is infinitely more opportunities for ones preconceptions to be challenged. I'm not saying it's easy for ones preconceptions to be challenged but it does often still happen and thus with an infinite life span there is both significantly more time and significantly more opportunity for this to happen. What I'm suggesting is that where we don't observe significant adaptation in preconceptions within a shorter time scales, we might discover that humans are more capable to adapt over a much longer scale. We might even beg for change just out of pure boredom (eg I doubt many people could stand doing the same job for hundreds of years). Change pushes us outside of our comfort zone, into new social groups, and most importantly, change can often force us to evaluate our preconceptions through personal experience which is far more valuable to reconditioning than debate and 2nd hand reporting (which is what your articles focused on). Ultimately though, and as I said to the GP, this is all speculative. However I would be amazed if infinite life + good health didn't affect human psychology given the massive impact it would have culturally and the significance that mortality, the fear of growing old and ill health, all play in human psychology. There are so many variables that would change (economic, social, psychological, etc) beyond just the numbers on our birthday cakes that I find it weird to assume our lives would just be the same but longer.
  - ethbro 10y ago
    Selective exposure bias and cognitive dissonance absolutely do not only apply to information (in as you said "debate and 2nd hand reporting"). Their effects are equally documented on first hand experience. Two people with difference beliefs experience the same thing and each walk away with their previous beliefs reinforced. I hear and grant your argument ("What I'm suggesting is that where we don't observe significant adaptation in preconceptions within a shorter time scales, we might discover that humans are more capable to adapt over a much longer scale."). But you're seemingly only using that to suggest that there will be one impact (towards more flexibility / change). You're ignoring the other side of the sword: what if more experience only deepens our beliefs because of our hardwired cognitive biases? E.g. if its difficult to overcome 20 years of racist enculturation, then what about 200? The worries I have, and why I bet more on my future than yours, is that the majority of these biases stem from non-conscious processes in our brains. So there's no indication that taking a brain adapted for a 30 year human lifespan and extending it to 200 is going to radically change their physical, biological underpinnings. However, if we gain the technology to indefinitely extend life, it seems probable that we'd also have the technical capability to modify these logical flaws. So it's possible we'd be able to "debias" brains to a greater degree. Or, and I'd actually consider this more unlikely and harder, perhaps our understanding of human psychology and neuroscience will have advanced to the point where we can consciously override our own biases in a more reliable and passive manner (e.g. super mindfulness, Dune-esque psychoconditioning). My main point is that indefinitely extending life and expecting our mammilian, product of evolution brains to just "get it" isn't a bet I'd be willing to take with humankind's culture hanging in the balance.