7 ms·

You neglect the scenario in which the overpaid employee could be married with dependents. When your kids depend on your paycheck, this is not such a simple matt

You neglect the scenario in which the overpaid employee could be married with dependents. When your kids depend on your paycheck, this is not such a simple matter, and making trades for "a lot of money now" doesn't seem like such a bad deal. When you're young and uncommitted, you can afford to make moves on airy idealism. You can't when you have something important riding on it. This is true even if you have a lot of savings or "runway".

watwut 9y ago
I agree that he should find another job with reasonable pay before leaving this one, especially if he is in situation you described. However, none of my three was result of idealism. I think that I am older then the average here and I have kids. As I got older, those three became more important not less. Including and maybe especially after children. Children benefit from father that interacts with them happily and normally, if the dad is frustrated and angry from work it is harder. If you damage relationship with spouse while you have children, consequences are more painful to fix then as if you was twenty and just figuring out whether she is long term material or not. I have seen people who became demotivated and complacent drones - and it did became real problem and it caught them up. It is harder to get rid of bad habits at later age. Ageism is also very real, so the older you are the more careful you have to be at how you look to prospect employers. If you have small children you have less time to learn out of work and less free time to just relax. That makes the choice of work more important not less. You can not just slack around dead end technology in work and then use evening to learn new things as much as before (lets be honest, that is what many people without responsibilities at home do).
- cookiecaper 9y ago
  Of course I agree that if someone can simply move to a better working situation, they should; that seems tautological. In practice, doing this takes preparation, and you can never really know what to expect until you've already made the jump. It's important to realize that going nomad any time work goes sideways will lead to a lot of instability over a period of years. It seems a more tenable solution is to control the response to one's working environment and then seek to control/improve the working environment, leaving the mirage of greener pastures as a last resort.
  - dismantlethesun 9y ago
    I don't think it's simple. I know people that took as much as a year to find a job they liked while remaining employed at a poor workplace. However it is important, so even if it takes time and effort you should try to look for better work rather than accept the current situation.
  - watwut 9y ago
    "It seems a more tenable solution is to control the response to one's working environment and then seek to control/improve the working environment, leaving the mirage of greener pastures as a last resort." That is when the work is somewhat acceptable, but not ideal. It is not when the work is "shitty" and its shitiness affects you. Most workplaces are not horribly shitty, really. Moreover, various people handle various kind of dysfunction differently. There are dysfunctions I handle well and can adjust to, but are also dysfunctions I handle badly. Ultimately, if it is easy to control the response to one's working environment, then it is not really bad. And really bad workplaces exist and will affect not just you, but your family and future too. If you have been unhappy in school, afterschool clubs and all employers, then I agree it is you. If you have been happy up to now and it is hell suddenly, then it is the place. If this is the latter, then it is good idea to seek new job immediately - that is not going nomad, that is looking at possibilities you have. Not doing so out of fear can be a mistake. You wont find good workplace if you are not looking for one. At minimum, once you take steps to find another job and know what is possible, you become objectively more in control of your life and will feel less trapped. Nothing bad can come out of that.
    - cookiecaper 9y ago
      >There are dysfunctions I handle well and can adjust to, but are also dysfunctions I handle badly. Point taken, but this is not an acceptable excuse. You have to keep it together for your spouse and children. Lashing out at them is not acceptable regardless of what's happening at work. This attitude of "there are just some things I can't control" is pervasive and it's very dangerous. When we have people depending on us, we cannot allow ourselves to blame externalities for our behaviors. >Ultimately, if it is easy to control the response to one's working environment, then it is not really bad. And really bad workplaces exist and will affect not just you, but your family and future too. Along the same lines, it's not that it's easy to be reasonably pleasant in the midst of a stressful working engagement. But it is necessary. I agree that there are some working conditions that are total non-starters, but it's unlikely that you'd find yourself stuck there; you'd walk out on day 1 or 2 and go find a real job. Barring such conditions, I would argue that it is frequently more efficient to change the conditions at your current employer than to gain new employment. Remember we're talking in the context of an overpaid employee here, but developing the skills to do this instead of abandoning a company before your mobility is actually limited is a very smart thing. > If you have been happy up to now and it is hell suddenly, then it is the place. If the change is sudden, it'd be wise to inquire as to its nature and permanence before jumping ship. Sudden negative changes usually cause a mass exodus of skilled employees, so if you're already overpaid and the market is getting saturated with the resumes of your competitors, this is probably not a good time to jump ship. >At minimum, once you take steps to find another job and know what is possible, you become objectively more in control of your life and will feel less trapped. Nothing bad can come out of that. This thread is about overpaid people. Going out and looking is discouraging if you don't yet realize that you're overpaid and/or how difficult it would be to replace your current employer. You learn that your mobility is much lower than you thought it was, and this understandably creates a feel of being more, not less, trapped. It is good to have an accurate concept of one's economic position, but you won't necessarily feel less trapped.
RandomOpinion 9y ago
> When your kids depend on your paycheck, this is not such a simple matter, and making trades for "a lot of money now" doesn't seem like such a bad deal. Sure, until the gravy train ends, and it always does (layoffs, reorganizations, etc.), and you wind up looking for a new job with skills that are irrelevant or out-of-date. Unless you're within spitting distance of retirement, staying in a job that isn't growing you and preparing you for your next job (or, worse, might be burning you out) is a massive risk.
- cookiecaper 9y ago
  Yes, I agree that everyone should stay reasonably sharp. I don't think you necessarily need your day job to be on a "modern stack" to do this. Also, if you're overpaid for a software engineer, you may want to attempt to pivot to a managerial/leadership role where salary caps are higher. Staying at a "broken place" and making efforts to improve it is very valuable experience for that kind of career track.

watwut 9y ago

I agree that he should find another job with reasonable pay before leaving this one, especially if he is in situation you described. However, none of my three was result of idealism. I think that I am older then the average here and I have kids. As I got older, those three became more important not less. Including and maybe especially after children. Children benefit from father that interacts with them happily and normally, if the dad is frustrated and angry from work it is harder. If you damage relationship with spouse while you have children, consequences are more painful to fix then as if you was twenty and just figuring out whether she is long term material or not. I have seen people who became demotivated and complacent drones - and it did became real problem and it caught them up. It is harder to get rid of bad habits at later age. Ageism is also very real, so the older you are the more careful you have to be at how you look to prospect employers. If you have small children you have less time to learn out of work and less free time to just relax. That makes the choice of work more important not less. You can not just slack around dead end technology in work and then use evening to learn new things as much as before (lets be honest, that is what many people without responsibilities at home do).

cookiecaper 9y ago
Of course I agree that if someone can simply move to a better working situation, they should; that seems tautological. In practice, doing this takes preparation, and you can never really know what to expect until you've already made the jump. It's important to realize that going nomad any time work goes sideways will lead to a lot of instability over a period of years. It seems a more tenable solution is to control the response to one's working environment and then seek to control/improve the working environment, leaving the mirage of greener pastures as a last resort.
- dismantlethesun 9y ago
  I don't think it's simple. I know people that took as much as a year to find a job they liked while remaining employed at a poor workplace. However it is important, so even if it takes time and effort you should try to look for better work rather than accept the current situation.
- watwut 9y ago
  "It seems a more tenable solution is to control the response to one's working environment and then seek to control/improve the working environment, leaving the mirage of greener pastures as a last resort." That is when the work is somewhat acceptable, but not ideal. It is not when the work is "shitty" and its shitiness affects you. Most workplaces are not horribly shitty, really. Moreover, various people handle various kind of dysfunction differently. There are dysfunctions I handle well and can adjust to, but are also dysfunctions I handle badly. Ultimately, if it is easy to control the response to one's working environment, then it is not really bad. And really bad workplaces exist and will affect not just you, but your family and future too. If you have been unhappy in school, afterschool clubs and all employers, then I agree it is you. If you have been happy up to now and it is hell suddenly, then it is the place. If this is the latter, then it is good idea to seek new job immediately - that is not going nomad, that is looking at possibilities you have. Not doing so out of fear can be a mistake. You wont find good workplace if you are not looking for one. At minimum, once you take steps to find another job and know what is possible, you become objectively more in control of your life and will feel less trapped. Nothing bad can come out of that.
  - cookiecaper 9y ago
    >There are dysfunctions I handle well and can adjust to, but are also dysfunctions I handle badly. Point taken, but this is not an acceptable excuse. You have to keep it together for your spouse and children. Lashing out at them is not acceptable regardless of what's happening at work. This attitude of "there are just some things I can't control" is pervasive and it's very dangerous. When we have people depending on us, we cannot allow ourselves to blame externalities for our behaviors. >Ultimately, if it is easy to control the response to one's working environment, then it is not really bad. And really bad workplaces exist and will affect not just you, but your family and future too. Along the same lines, it's not that it's easy to be reasonably pleasant in the midst of a stressful working engagement. But it is necessary. I agree that there are some working conditions that are total non-starters, but it's unlikely that you'd find yourself stuck there; you'd walk out on day 1 or 2 and go find a real job. Barring such conditions, I would argue that it is frequently more efficient to change the conditions at your current employer than to gain new employment. Remember we're talking in the context of an overpaid employee here, but developing the skills to do this instead of abandoning a company before your mobility is actually limited is a very smart thing. > If you have been happy up to now and it is hell suddenly, then it is the place. If the change is sudden, it'd be wise to inquire as to its nature and permanence before jumping ship. Sudden negative changes usually cause a mass exodus of skilled employees, so if you're already overpaid and the market is getting saturated with the resumes of your competitors, this is probably not a good time to jump ship. >At minimum, once you take steps to find another job and know what is possible, you become objectively more in control of your life and will feel less trapped. Nothing bad can come out of that. This thread is about overpaid people. Going out and looking is discouraging if you don't yet realize that you're overpaid and/or how difficult it would be to replace your current employer. You learn that your mobility is much lower than you thought it was, and this understandably creates a feel of being more, not less, trapped. It is good to have an accurate concept of one's economic position, but you won't necessarily feel less trapped.

RandomOpinion 9y ago

> When your kids depend on your paycheck, this is not such a simple matter, and making trades for "a lot of money now" doesn't seem like such a bad deal. Sure, until the gravy train ends, and it always does (layoffs, reorganizations, etc.), and you wind up looking for a new job with skills that are irrelevant or out-of-date. Unless you're within spitting distance of retirement, staying in a job that isn't growing you and preparing you for your next job (or, worse, might be burning you out) is a massive risk.

cookiecaper 9y ago
Yes, I agree that everyone should stay reasonably sharp. I don't think you necessarily need your day job to be on a "modern stack" to do this. Also, if you're overpaid for a software engineer, you may want to attempt to pivot to a managerial/leadership role where salary caps are higher. Staying at a "broken place" and making efforts to improve it is very valuable experience for that kind of career track.