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How often do you need non trivial procedures? Surgical operations are split into 2 groups - planned and unplanned. In planned enter people that could wait a bi

How often do you need non trivial procedures? Surgical operations are split into 2 groups - planned and unplanned. In planned enter people that could wait a bit. If there is good medical reason that you cannot wait you get the treatment on the spot. You only have real waiting lists for transplants.

dagw 9y ago
In planned enter people that could wait a bit. And in what way is that not a waiting list?
- panzer_wyrm 9y ago
  Because waiting lists imply shortage or rationing. Here this is not the case. It is mostly optimization of utilization of existing capacity. It is best for both the purse of the system and the patient if needed but not urgent stuff is done at time convenient to all parties. This way everybody could be prepared. The hoapitals will stock the right amount of supplies, the bloodbanks will know how much and what kind of blood is needed in advance and so on. The patient will make sure all mission critical projects are taken care of for the rehabilitation time etc.
  - chimeracoder 9y ago
    > Because waiting lists imply shortage or rationing. Here this is not the case. It is mostly optimization of utilization of existing capacity. Call it what you want, but that is literally rationing a scarce resources
    - panzer_wyrm 9y ago
      Scarce resources are kidneys. There are not enough of them to go around. Not all people that need kidneys will get them in any time frame. They are also rationed - you get one kidney transplant and that's it. On the other hand the people that need lets say hip replacement will get it. The system have enough capacity and budget to serve their medical needs. But it works better if the people are properly spaced.
      - dagw 9y ago
        But it works better if the people are properly spaced. So (excepting some triage) they put people on a _list_ of people that need hip replacements and make them _wait_ until they get to the front of the list before they get their surgery.
  - dagw 9y ago
    if needed but not urgent stuff is done at time convenient to all parties The most convenient time for me for my knee surgery was yesterday the most convenient time for the hospital was in 4-6 month. Guess who's convenience was taken into consideration.
    - ceejayoz 9y ago
      > Guess who's convenience was taken into consideration. 4-6 months worth of other patients with similar needs?
      - dagw 9y ago
        Exactly. They didn't have enough resources to take care of everybody in the timeline all those patients wanted to, so everybody got put on a waiting list and knee surgeries where rationed out based on needs and available resources based on some opaque system.
        ceejayoz 9y ago
        So... you'd like a system with so much extra capacity sitting around that elective surgery would always be available next-day?
        dagw 9y ago
        Not at all (well obviously it would be nice, but highly unrealistic). I'm just saying that claiming the the 'European' systems are so great that they don't have waiting lists or rationing is asinine. And while I guess knee surgery is technically 'elective' as in I could elect to not be able to carry heavy things and have trouble getting up stairs, I'm not quite sure I'd use that term.
        ceejayoz 9y ago
        Claiming there's no waiting in Europe is idiotic. Claiming Europe is bad because there's waiting is similarly idiotic, given the fact that US has significant wait times for procedures and specialists as well. As for using the term "elective", I would use that term, given it has a specific definition: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elective_surgery https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elective_surgery > Elective surgery or elective procedure (from the Latin eligere, meaning to choose) is surgery that is scheduled in advance because it does not involve a medical emergency. Semi-elective surgery is a surgery that must be done to preserve the patient's life, but does not need to be performed immediately.
  - makomk 9y ago
    No, sorry, it's not just optimisation of existing capacity. Here in the UK the long waiting lists incentivise people who can afford it to get treated privately so they can get back to health sooner, saving the NHS from doing it at all. Often the treatments happen using the same facilities and staff that would also carry out the NHS-funded treatment.
- ceejayoz 9y ago
  Of course it's a waiting list. Waiting lists are just a stupid argument, because the US has them too.

dagw 9y ago

In planned enter people that could wait a bit. And in what way is that not a waiting list?

panzer_wyrm 9y ago
Because waiting lists imply shortage or rationing. Here this is not the case. It is mostly optimization of utilization of existing capacity. It is best for both the purse of the system and the patient if needed but not urgent stuff is done at time convenient to all parties. This way everybody could be prepared. The hoapitals will stock the right amount of supplies, the bloodbanks will know how much and what kind of blood is needed in advance and so on. The patient will make sure all mission critical projects are taken care of for the rehabilitation time etc.
- chimeracoder 9y ago
  > Because waiting lists imply shortage or rationing. Here this is not the case. It is mostly optimization of utilization of existing capacity. Call it what you want, but that is literally rationing a scarce resources
  - panzer_wyrm 9y ago
    Scarce resources are kidneys. There are not enough of them to go around. Not all people that need kidneys will get them in any time frame. They are also rationed - you get one kidney transplant and that's it. On the other hand the people that need lets say hip replacement will get it. The system have enough capacity and budget to serve their medical needs. But it works better if the people are properly spaced.
    - dagw 9y ago
      But it works better if the people are properly spaced. So (excepting some triage) they put people on a _list_ of people that need hip replacements and make them _wait_ until they get to the front of the list before they get their surgery.
- dagw 9y ago
  if needed but not urgent stuff is done at time convenient to all parties The most convenient time for me for my knee surgery was yesterday the most convenient time for the hospital was in 4-6 month. Guess who's convenience was taken into consideration.
  - ceejayoz 9y ago
    > Guess who's convenience was taken into consideration. 4-6 months worth of other patients with similar needs?
    - dagw 9y ago
      Exactly. They didn't have enough resources to take care of everybody in the timeline all those patients wanted to, so everybody got put on a waiting list and knee surgeries where rationed out based on needs and available resources based on some opaque system.
      - ceejayoz 9y ago
        So... you'd like a system with so much extra capacity sitting around that elective surgery would always be available next-day?
        dagw 9y ago
        Not at all (well obviously it would be nice, but highly unrealistic). I'm just saying that claiming the the 'European' systems are so great that they don't have waiting lists or rationing is asinine. And while I guess knee surgery is technically 'elective' as in I could elect to not be able to carry heavy things and have trouble getting up stairs, I'm not quite sure I'd use that term.
        ceejayoz 9y ago
        Claiming there's no waiting in Europe is idiotic. Claiming Europe is bad because there's waiting is similarly idiotic, given the fact that US has significant wait times for procedures and specialists as well. As for using the term "elective", I would use that term, given it has a specific definition: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elective_surgery https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elective_surgery > Elective surgery or elective procedure (from the Latin eligere, meaning to choose) is surgery that is scheduled in advance because it does not involve a medical emergency. Semi-elective surgery is a surgery that must be done to preserve the patient's life, but does not need to be performed immediately.
- makomk 9y ago
  No, sorry, it's not just optimisation of existing capacity. Here in the UK the long waiting lists incentivise people who can afford it to get treated privately so they can get back to health sooner, saving the NHS from doing it at all. Often the treatments happen using the same facilities and staff that would also carry out the NHS-funded treatment.
ceejayoz 9y ago
Of course it's a waiting list. Waiting lists are just a stupid argument, because the US has them too.