5 ms·

Hmm. Making your app profitable by running a fleet of buses seems a bit... ambitious. Background: Everybody in London uses Citymapper and nobody uses Google Ma

Hmm. Making your app profitable by running a fleet of buses seems a bit... ambitious. Background: Everybody in London uses Citymapper and nobody uses Google Maps. It is a great app. London Buses are also very good. As has been pointed out, they have GPS sensors. There is also a sophisticated infrastructure behind them, e.g. a control room that tells drivers to turn around and go back mid-rout if the buses are too unevenly distributed. See e.g. the BBC's Route Masters documentary if you can find it: http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b02znsx2 http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b02znsx2 As has also been pointed out here, London Transport does not make a profit (although their public funding is constantly shrinking). So any new entrant has to be more profitable than them with a much smaller market share. Wonder if that is possible if you only differentiate yourself by technology. We'll see.

cjrp 9y ago
I feel like London is just the test city since it's where their offices are. Maybe the plan is to fine-tune the platform here and then expand to cities which are not as well served by public transport?
- wattson12 9y ago
  In their own blog post they specifically mention that (https://content.citymapper.com/news/1800/introducing-the-citymapper-smartbus https://content.citymapper.com/news/1800/introducing-the-cit...) > London is actually not that badly served, but other cities have major gaps
ForHackernews 9y ago
In my experience, Google Maps is really terrible outside the United States. It doesn't seem to understand that in the UK, a narrow country lane might have a speed limit of 60 mph, but nobody could ever drive that speed on it. It's constantly proposing insane detours off A roads onto back lanes obstructed by sheep and farm equipment. Unlike Citymapper, Google Maps doesn't have a notion of multimodal transport: cycling to a train station, for example. Citymapper also doesn't "lose" your in-progress journey if you click the wrong thing or close the app.
- mmahemoff 9y ago
  Google Maps still doesn't have any concept of Boris Bikes either, London's bike rental scheme that's been active and popular for 5+ years. CityMapper has shown real-time bike and slot availability for years, as well as travel time estimates, to the point where I doubt any Londoner would bother using the official app anymore for bike rental (or any of the other third party apps). "Unlike Citymapper, Google Maps doesn't have a notion of multimodal transport: cycling to a train station, for example" This is really neat. Also includes Uber-ing to a train station.
- talldan 9y ago
  I don't think that's true. Google maps uses average speed on roads to estimate the fastest route, not the speed limit. If they used the speed limit the app would never take traffic and other conditions into account, which it clearly does. Having said that, I have experienced a crazy route now and then, but I think it's often caused by incorrect map updates.
  - ForHackernews 9y ago
    Maybe they don't have enough Android-carrying traffic on rural lanes to calculate an average speed? All I know is I frequently get really goofy route suggestions from Google Maps that seem totally clueless about the difficulty of driving narrow UK backroads.
  - acdha 9y ago
    > Google maps uses average speed on roads to estimate the fastest route, not the speed limit. Even in the U.S. Google Maps regularly recommends things like unprotected left turns against heavy traffic to get onto a road with a speed limit which is 5-10mph higher, even when that road is equally congested.
- iNerdier 9y ago
  At least it's not as bad as Apple maps which don't even provide an option for cycling. Sigh.
- CalRobert 9y ago
fennecfoxen 9y ago
> There is also a sophisticated infrastructure behind them, e.g. a control room that tells drivers to turn around and go back mid-rout if the buses are too unevenly distributed. Yeah, it's really sophisticated; it means that if I catch a 3 bus signed for Crystal Palace there's about a 33% chance that it dumps me in Brixton to wait an extra twenty minutes in the rain, instead of taking me all the way home.
- matt4077 9y ago
  I'm pretty sure the described tactics should succeed at optimising expected travel time, but they (knowingly) do so at the cost of variability. I regular get to experience the opposite: waiting 20min in the rain, at which point three busses arrive as a group. Yet another extreme is low variability with high scheduled travel time, achieved by including a minute of slack at every second stop or so. It's a result of an inherent instability in bus operations: As soon as the intervals diverge only marginally, faster busses become even faster, because there are fewer people waiting for them and vice versa.
thiscatis 9y ago
"Everybody in London uses Citymapper and nobody uses Google Maps." Well I live in London and actually prefer Google Maps directions over CityMapper which I think is slow to start and a bit slow in fetching and updating alternative routes. I do like the "preferred tube car" to use based on your entry / exit tube station but after a while you don't need the actual app for this as they don't change.
iicc 9y ago
Actual bus operations are run by private companies though (which is not the bit I would expect citymapper to be good at/interested in). https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/London_Buses#Bus_operations https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/London_Buses#Bus_operations
bernardlunn 9y ago
Agree. Love Citymapper and love London buses and tube - this seems like massive overeach

cjrp 9y ago

I feel like London is just the test city since it's where their offices are. Maybe the plan is to fine-tune the platform here and then expand to cities which are not as well served by public transport?

wattson12 9y ago
In their own blog post they specifically mention that (https://content.citymapper.com/news/1800/introducing-the-citymapper-smartbus https://content.citymapper.com/news/1800/introducing-the-cit...) > London is actually not that badly served, but other cities have major gaps

ForHackernews 9y ago

In my experience, Google Maps is really terrible outside the United States. It doesn't seem to understand that in the UK, a narrow country lane might have a speed limit of 60 mph, but nobody could ever drive that speed on it. It's constantly proposing insane detours off A roads onto back lanes obstructed by sheep and farm equipment. Unlike Citymapper, Google Maps doesn't have a notion of multimodal transport: cycling to a train station, for example. Citymapper also doesn't "lose" your in-progress journey if you click the wrong thing or close the app.

mmahemoff 9y ago
Google Maps still doesn't have any concept of Boris Bikes either, London's bike rental scheme that's been active and popular for 5+ years. CityMapper has shown real-time bike and slot availability for years, as well as travel time estimates, to the point where I doubt any Londoner would bother using the official app anymore for bike rental (or any of the other third party apps). "Unlike Citymapper, Google Maps doesn't have a notion of multimodal transport: cycling to a train station, for example" This is really neat. Also includes Uber-ing to a train station.
talldan 9y ago
I don't think that's true. Google maps uses average speed on roads to estimate the fastest route, not the speed limit. If they used the speed limit the app would never take traffic and other conditions into account, which it clearly does. Having said that, I have experienced a crazy route now and then, but I think it's often caused by incorrect map updates.
- ForHackernews 9y ago
  Maybe they don't have enough Android-carrying traffic on rural lanes to calculate an average speed? All I know is I frequently get really goofy route suggestions from Google Maps that seem totally clueless about the difficulty of driving narrow UK backroads.
- acdha 9y ago
  > Google maps uses average speed on roads to estimate the fastest route, not the speed limit. Even in the U.S. Google Maps regularly recommends things like unprotected left turns against heavy traffic to get onto a road with a speed limit which is 5-10mph higher, even when that road is equally congested.
iNerdier 9y ago
At least it's not as bad as Apple maps which don't even provide an option for cycling. Sigh.
CalRobert 9y ago

fennecfoxen 9y ago

> There is also a sophisticated infrastructure behind them, e.g. a control room that tells drivers to turn around and go back mid-rout if the buses are too unevenly distributed. Yeah, it's really sophisticated; it means that if I catch a 3 bus signed for Crystal Palace there's about a 33% chance that it dumps me in Brixton to wait an extra twenty minutes in the rain, instead of taking me all the way home.

matt4077 9y ago
I'm pretty sure the described tactics should succeed at optimising expected travel time, but they (knowingly) do so at the cost of variability. I regular get to experience the opposite: waiting 20min in the rain, at which point three busses arrive as a group. Yet another extreme is low variability with high scheduled travel time, achieved by including a minute of slack at every second stop or so. It's a result of an inherent instability in bus operations: As soon as the intervals diverge only marginally, faster busses become even faster, because there are fewer people waiting for them and vice versa.

thiscatis 9y ago

"Everybody in London uses Citymapper and nobody uses Google Maps." Well I live in London and actually prefer Google Maps directions over CityMapper which I think is slow to start and a bit slow in fetching and updating alternative routes. I do like the "preferred tube car" to use based on your entry / exit tube station but after a while you don't need the actual app for this as they don't change.

iicc 9y ago

Actual bus operations are run by private companies though (which is not the bit I would expect citymapper to be good at/interested in). https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/London_Buses#Bus_operations https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/London_Buses#Bus_operations

bernardlunn 9y ago

Agree. Love Citymapper and love London buses and tube - this seems like massive overeach