4 ms·

Rape victims arn't punished in Saudi Arabia. Theres no crime of being raped. The woman in your one anecdotal point was charged with a seperate case of adultery

by cup 9y ago

Rape victims arn't punished in Saudi Arabia. Theres no crime of being raped. The woman in your one anecdotal point was charged with a seperate case of adultery during a rape trial that wasn't in conjunction with the rape. Furthermore the rapists were charged and punished for rape, an act that is illegal. If you want to argue about adultery being a crime then go for it but don't conflate to topics to spread something factually incorrect. Theres plenty of things to criticise Saudi for. Just like theres plenty of things to criticise America for (institutional racism, foreign policy, drug laws etc) and every other country. "I will fight unjustified islamophobic caricature anytime". Evidently you won't because here you are spreading caricatures of islam targeting rape victims. "We overthrew the Talebans (partly) for moral reasons. If we had been serious and honest about these reasons, Saudi Arabia should have been on the "axis of evil" too." If you were serious about "these reasons" then America would probably be higher on the list than 3rd world Afghanistan. Come on now.

mveety 9y ago
> Rape victims arn't punished in Saudi Arabia. Theres no crime of being raped. True, but they did commit adultery when they were raped. Technically, they aren't punished for being raped, but in reality, they are punished for being raped.
- cup 9y ago
  No that's factually wrong. If you read about the case you would know the adultery issue was separate, was consensual and had nothing to do with the rape except for the fact that the judges responded to both separate cases during the same trial.
  - candiodari 9y ago
    Where did you read there was a second "offence" by the victim ?
    - cup 9y ago
      In the actual report regarding the trial and retrial.
      - candiodari 9y ago
        Can you provide a link ?
        cup 9y ago
        The wiki case is in English. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qatif_rape_case https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qatif_rape_case
        candiodari 9y ago
        Ah yes, so your case is that women are equal in islam because, she was not convicted JUST for being raped. She was being convicted for talking to someone initially, because it "led to rape" (from the article linked on wikipedia). Then, based on an unwritten confession, without so much as mentioning what the victim "confessed", the sentence was increased. In defense of this, famously, on live TV, a former Saudi judge and current consultant to the justice ministry called the rape victim a "cheating spouse" to her husband (for being raped ...). Furthermore it is apparently customary for rape cases to prosecute both the criminal and the victim [1], and the justification for this, as stated by the government is that islam demands it. Is this supposed to be a defense ? [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rape_in_Saudi_Arabia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rape_in_Saudi_Arabia
candiodari 9y ago
> Rape victims arn't punished in Saudi Arabia. Theres no crime of being raped. The woman in your one anecdotal point was charged with a seperate case of adultery during a rape trial that wasn't in conjunction with the rape. Furthermore the rapists were charged and punished for rape, an act that is illegal. If you want to argue about adultery being a crime then go for it but don't conflate to topics to spread something factually incorrect. Since you're accusing human rights watch from inaccurately reporting this ... can you provide a citation for your new fact that there was a second offence ? Or are you perhaps claiming that while the rape was an offence of the rapists, getting raped was a separate offence by the victim ? I would also like to point out that punishing rape victims is part of islamic rules: e.g. "if a man comes upon a man, then they are both adulterers," "If a woman comes upon a woman, they are both Adulteresses," "When a man mounts another man, the throne of God shakes," and "Kill the one that is doing it and also kill the one that it is being done to." (Abu Dawud 4462 and al-Tirmidhi 1456) Google it to find more references than you could ever need to be satisfied. And yes, this is about gay sex, but is widely interpreted to include gay rape. Getting raped by someone of the same sex as you is punishable by death according to sharia. Are you seriously disputing this ? And just so we're clear. We're talking about this Saudi Arabia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2002_Mecca_girls%27_school_fire https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2002_Mecca_girls%27_school_fir... Where the "religious police" beat up firefighters and sent rescued girls BACK INTO THEIR BURNING DORMATORIES because of the mingling laws ... at least 15 did not survive.
- aaron695 9y ago
  hrw is lying. OK, not lying but being deceiving. They never actually say she was sentenced for being raped if you read it carefully. Why have they done this?
  - candiodari 9y ago
    So let me get this straight. In order to believe that this is not in fact the case, you suggest that human rights watch is a conspiracy against Saudi Arabia, or perhaps against islam. And we are to believe that, as opposed to the many different sources pointing out that islam assigns second-class status to women, and Saudi Arabia forces that on women, on your word, without so much as a single source. Can you provide some sources for this ?
Iv 9y ago
First note that my source isn't a tabloid, this is Human Rights Watch. They check their sources. > The woman in your one anecdotal point was charged with a seperate case of adultery during a rape trial that wasn't in conjunction with the rape. From the article: "The young woman, who is married, said she had met with a male acquaintance who had promised to give her back an old photograph of herself." "Moreover, the court in October 2006 also sentenced both the woman and man who had been raped to 90 lashes each for what it termed “illegal mingling.”" This is not adultery, this is just meeting a person of the other gender without her guardian. > Furthermore the rapists were charged and punished for rape, an act that is illegal. It is, indeed, illegal, but they were not charged for that: "Despite the prosecution’s requests for the maximum penalty for the rapists, the Qatif court sentenced four of them to between one and five years in prison and between 80 and 1,000 lashes. They were convicted of kidnapping, apparently because prosecutors could not prove rape. The judges reportedly ignored evidence from a mobile phone video in which the attackers recorded the assault." The scenario we are talking about is a husband repudiating his wife and abandoning her somewhere. Were she to be assaulted by a male, she would then be in an illegal "gender mingling" situation, often punished more harshly than rape. The only thing that is hyperbole in cup's scenario is that she would not be punished for adultery but just for breach of gender isolation. Yes, this is anecdotal evidence, but if you want to work on Saudi's system, that is all you have, the system is voluntarily opaque and does not communicate statistics on condemnations. Activists and journalists who may try to gather figures risk their freedom. Women's life in Saudi Arabia is probably the most totalitarian experience available in 2017, on par with North Korea's experience. https://www.hrw.org/report/2016/07/16/boxed/women-and-saudi-arabias-male-guardianship-system https://www.hrw.org/report/2016/07/16/boxed/women-and-saudi-...
- Iv 9y ago
  Sorry, I meant harry8's scenario, not cup's
echaozh 9y ago
So, you mean it's OK to charge a woman for adultery? Whatever the woman is charged with, it's not right. If she is a rape victim, she should be left alone at the very least, and protected with the rapist prosecuted for the best. Charge her with any crime is a horrible thing to do.

by cup 9y ago

mveety 9y ago

> Rape victims arn't punished in Saudi Arabia. Theres no crime of being raped. True, but they did commit adultery when they were raped. Technically, they aren't punished for being raped, but in reality, they are punished for being raped.

cup 9y ago
No that's factually wrong. If you read about the case you would know the adultery issue was separate, was consensual and had nothing to do with the rape except for the fact that the judges responded to both separate cases during the same trial.
- candiodari 9y ago
  Where did you read there was a second "offence" by the victim ?
  - cup 9y ago
    In the actual report regarding the trial and retrial.
    - candiodari 9y ago
      Can you provide a link ?
      - cup 9y ago
        The wiki case is in English. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qatif_rape_case https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qatif_rape_case
        candiodari 9y ago
        Ah yes, so your case is that women are equal in islam because, she was not convicted JUST for being raped. She was being convicted for talking to someone initially, because it "led to rape" (from the article linked on wikipedia). Then, based on an unwritten confession, without so much as mentioning what the victim "confessed", the sentence was increased. In defense of this, famously, on live TV, a former Saudi judge and current consultant to the justice ministry called the rape victim a "cheating spouse" to her husband (for being raped ...). Furthermore it is apparently customary for rape cases to prosecute both the criminal and the victim [1], and the justification for this, as stated by the government is that islam demands it. Is this supposed to be a defense ? [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rape_in_Saudi_Arabia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rape_in_Saudi_Arabia

candiodari 9y ago

> Rape victims arn't punished in Saudi Arabia. Theres no crime of being raped. The woman in your one anecdotal point was charged with a seperate case of adultery during a rape trial that wasn't in conjunction with the rape. Furthermore the rapists were charged and punished for rape, an act that is illegal. If you want to argue about adultery being a crime then go for it but don't conflate to topics to spread something factually incorrect. Since you're accusing human rights watch from inaccurately reporting this ... can you provide a citation for your new fact that there was a second offence ? Or are you perhaps claiming that while the rape was an offence of the rapists, getting raped was a separate offence by the victim ? I would also like to point out that punishing rape victims is part of islamic rules: e.g. "if a man comes upon a man, then they are both adulterers," "If a woman comes upon a woman, they are both Adulteresses," "When a man mounts another man, the throne of God shakes," and "Kill the one that is doing it and also kill the one that it is being done to." (Abu Dawud 4462 and al-Tirmidhi 1456) Google it to find more references than you could ever need to be satisfied. And yes, this is about gay sex, but is widely interpreted to include gay rape. Getting raped by someone of the same sex as you is punishable by death according to sharia. Are you seriously disputing this ? And just so we're clear. We're talking about this Saudi Arabia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2002_Mecca_girls%27_school_fire https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2002_Mecca_girls%27_school_fir... Where the "religious police" beat up firefighters and sent rescued girls BACK INTO THEIR BURNING DORMATORIES because of the mingling laws ... at least 15 did not survive.

aaron695 9y ago
hrw is lying. OK, not lying but being deceiving. They never actually say she was sentenced for being raped if you read it carefully. Why have they done this?
- candiodari 9y ago
  So let me get this straight. In order to believe that this is not in fact the case, you suggest that human rights watch is a conspiracy against Saudi Arabia, or perhaps against islam. And we are to believe that, as opposed to the many different sources pointing out that islam assigns second-class status to women, and Saudi Arabia forces that on women, on your word, without so much as a single source. Can you provide some sources for this ?

Iv 9y ago

First note that my source isn't a tabloid, this is Human Rights Watch. They check their sources. > The woman in your one anecdotal point was charged with a seperate case of adultery during a rape trial that wasn't in conjunction with the rape. From the article: "The young woman, who is married, said she had met with a male acquaintance who had promised to give her back an old photograph of herself." "Moreover, the court in October 2006 also sentenced both the woman and man who had been raped to 90 lashes each for what it termed “illegal mingling.”" This is not adultery, this is just meeting a person of the other gender without her guardian. > Furthermore the rapists were charged and punished for rape, an act that is illegal. It is, indeed, illegal, but they were not charged for that: "Despite the prosecution’s requests for the maximum penalty for the rapists, the Qatif court sentenced four of them to between one and five years in prison and between 80 and 1,000 lashes. They were convicted of kidnapping, apparently because prosecutors could not prove rape. The judges reportedly ignored evidence from a mobile phone video in which the attackers recorded the assault." The scenario we are talking about is a husband repudiating his wife and abandoning her somewhere. Were she to be assaulted by a male, she would then be in an illegal "gender mingling" situation, often punished more harshly than rape. The only thing that is hyperbole in cup's scenario is that she would not be punished for adultery but just for breach of gender isolation. Yes, this is anecdotal evidence, but if you want to work on Saudi's system, that is all you have, the system is voluntarily opaque and does not communicate statistics on condemnations. Activists and journalists who may try to gather figures risk their freedom. Women's life in Saudi Arabia is probably the most totalitarian experience available in 2017, on par with North Korea's experience. https://www.hrw.org/report/2016/07/16/boxed/women-and-saudi-arabias-male-guardianship-system https://www.hrw.org/report/2016/07/16/boxed/women-and-saudi-...

Iv 9y ago
Sorry, I meant harry8's scenario, not cup's

echaozh 9y ago

So, you mean it's OK to charge a woman for adultery? Whatever the woman is charged with, it's not right. If she is a rape victim, she should be left alone at the very least, and protected with the rapist prosecuted for the best. Charge her with any crime is a horrible thing to do.