4 ms·
Best reply so far. Might be misinterpreting, but I think that both you & the other person who replied to my above comment are taking the somewhat broad charge o
by rfrank 9y ago
Best reply so far. Might be misinterpreting, but I think that both you & the other person who replied to my above comment are taking the somewhat broad charge of high crimes and misdemeanors as allowing for just about anything to become grounds for impeachment, which just isn't the case.
Per Wikipedia, "Impeachment in the United States is an enumerated power of the legislature that allows formal charges to be brought against a civil officer of government for crimes alleged to have been committed. Most impeachments have concerned alleged crimes committed while in office, though there have been a few cases in which Congress has impeached and convicted officials partly for prior crimes." [1]
Wording in the Constitution, "The President, Vice President, and all civil Officers of the United States shall be removed from Office on Impeachment for, and conviction of, Treason, Bribery, or other High Crimes and Misdemeanors." [1]
"The charge of high crimes and misdemeanors covers allegations of misconduct peculiar to officials, such as perjury of oath, abuse of authority, bribery, intimidation, misuse of assets, failure to supervise, dereliction of duty, conduct unbecoming, and refusal to obey a lawful order. Offenses by officials also include ordinary crimes, but perhaps with different standards of proof and punishment than for nonofficials, on the grounds that more is expected of officials by their oaths of office." [2] Fun fact, the English version of the charge, in use since 1386, included losing a ship by neglecting to moor it as one of the offenses.
All that goes to say that legislation (law) is related, and there's some fairly specific criteria any president has to meet to be successfully impeached. There is a degree of "prosecutorial discretion," but it comes in the context of misconduct in office, as I understand it. Two sitting presidents have been impeached: Andrew Johnson for violating the Tenure of Office Act, and Bill Clinton for perjury and obstruction of justice.
Of the things you list, I think the divesting/time at own property are probably the strongest case. Assuming they'd go after him with the Emoluments clause, it could still be challenging, however. Lots of opinions on how broadly applicable it is [3-5].
The family thing is something I'm not personally a fan of, but I doubt it would be impeachable [6]. To quote, "Interestingly, there may be a loophole around all of this. The law says that penalty for violating this law is that the person is "not entitled to pay."" Bit later, “While it’s true that the penalty for violation of the statute is just to withhold salary or other financial remuneration from the wrongfully appointed employee, there’s also the possibility that any action taken by such a wrongfully appointed employee could be subject to legal challenge and potentially even be voidable,...”
I don't personally take the 25th very seriously. Lying is a critique that's been made of a pretty high percentage of politicians in history, I'd assume (not to be dismissive, happy to talk about examples you think are particularly egregious or w/e). "I am not a crook", "If you like your plan you can keep it", and on and on forever.
At the end of the day I don't particularly enjoy impeachment talk from either side because it feels blindly reactionary, when that energy is probably better spent directly opposing bits of policy (which is obviously happening), and in this particular instance preparing for 2018, which will be a very important midterm year. Holding our elected officials to a high standard is important, and the microscope that Trump and his admin are under ultimately benefits everyone, but I think it's also important to be selective about where and when to fight.
1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Impeachment_in_the_United_States https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Impeachment_in_the_United_Stat...
2. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High_crimes_and_misdemeanors https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High_crimes_and_misdemeanors
3. https://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/right-turn/wp/2017/03/09/trump-runs-roughshod-over-the-constitutions-emoluments-clause/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/right-turn/wp/2017/03/0...
4. https://www.bostonglobe.com/news/politics/2017/01/26/what-emoluments-clause-and-could-damage-donald-trump-presidency/kq54NgWXoI1lqvuo5yBAwN/story.html https://www.bostonglobe.com/news/politics/2017/01/26/what-em...
5. https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=2911871 https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=2911871
6. http://lawnewz.com/uncategorized/president-trump-is-legally-barred-from-appointing-his-family-members/ http://lawnewz.com/uncategorized/president-trump-is-legally-...
- gnaritas 9y agoThe point stands, there's enough that congress could impeach him at any time; if democrats were in control of congress it would have happened already as there's plenty to nail him with already. And you should take the 25th seriously, because it's the only way that he can be outed without even committing a crime of any sort. With the 25th he can be fired for merely being incompetent by his own cabinet and VP. He is unarguably the most incompetent and dishonest president ever to hold office in modern history. His sheer ignorance is astounding, he is utterly unqualified to hold office.
- rfrank 9y ago> The point stands, there's enough that congress could impeach him at any time... No, it doesn't, as I've just pointed out why all of your listed items have legitimate legal defenses that would probably win in court. I don't take the 25th seriously because it's basically fan fiction by people who hate Trump, and is completely impractical as an actual means of impeachment.
- gnaritas 9y agoProbably and definitely are vastly different things; there's enough to attempt to bring charges, that's all that matters. And no, the 25th isn't fan fiction, it's a legitimate means to remove a president for incompetency via his own party wanting him out of the way. I don't care if you don't take the constitution seriously, the courts do. And the 25th isn't impeachment, it's a different thing entirely.
- rfrank 9y ago> ...there's enough to attempt to bring charges, that's all that matters. Considering he'd still be in office, and any later attempt to impeach would likely fall on its face due to the embarrassing failure, no, charges aren't all that matters. Attempting to remove Trump with the 25th Amendment is a ridiculous pipe dream that will never happen. Thinking that doesn't mean I somehow don't take the Constitution seriously, but thanks for the super reasonable interpretation of my comment.