4 ms·

I can't speak much for depression, but there's a huge amount of research that cognitive behavioral therapy is almost useless for other illnesses (namely ADHD-fa

by rtpg 9y ago

I can't speak much for depression, but there's a huge amount of research that cognitive behavioral therapy is almost useless for other illnesses (namely ADHD-families). Inversely, medication is _very_ effective for ADHD (assuming this is what the adderall is for, given its comorbidity for a bunch of other stuff). While I can respect the person themselves making the decision to try and wean off these treatments, taking them away from a child who might not understand the implications is fraught. I was "convinced away" from ADHD meds in high school, and I had a lot of issues in college + work before getting proper treatment again. Suddenly so many anxiety-inducing behaviors were under my control again. I would love for CBT to be effective, because the meds do change me, but I've tried it, and there's been research showing it's ineffective. Inversely, the research shows that ADHD medication treatment is super effective at reducing symptoms, even outright eliminating them for a good subset of patients! It's the most well-treatable mental illness known to science (more-so than depression, even). Taking away this medication from someone else is like taking away someone's glasses or crutches. At least get their consent, please don't force it on them. And always offer them the option to get back on treatment if they're uncomfortable.

hosh 9y ago
Fair enough, thanks for sharing. I have a good friend who has ADD and is of a similar opinion as you. He has strong libertarian leanings and I asked him how does he reconcile his political philosophy with his use of ADD medication. He told me he considers it as getting him to the same starting line as everyone else. My own experiences with therapy relate more with meditation and concentration exercises rather than CBT (I kinda doubt CBT works for ADD and ADHD, though I'm not basing that opinion on science). I don't know to what extent meditation and concentration exercises helps with ADD though there are books written about it, and I have talked with at least one person who has ADD and has been practicing it for a while (but I didn't get a chance to ask him how well it works). I know that for myself, someone who does not have ADD or ADHD, the only way to increase control over attention and awareness is mindfulness and concentration. I am also speaking about "concentration exercises" in the classical sense, such as the term "jhana" from India. That is to say, when I am talking about concentration, I am talking about relaxed (rather than forced), one-pointed focus on one concentration object sustained over long periods of time, rather than the conflated sense of "concentration" when speaking casually about it or in the context of academics or work productively. The mindfulness is related to regaining impulse control by being aware of impulses that flow through the mind. The other thing to consider is: Autists tend to be given ADD or ADHD meds, but no one really knows if they actually work for the root cause, because we don't really know the root cause for ASD. The closest neuroscience has to offer as a theory is something called Intense World Theory on Autism. All the other theories on Autism are based on behavioral markers rather than neuroscience. An Autist might _present_ as ADD or ADHD, but they are not quite like that. So here, sample size of 1 opinion: my wife has ADD and my daughter is on the Autism spectrum. They both get distracted. My sense of how and what distracts them when observing them and talking with them tells me it might look the same, but it isn't. It's something our family counselor has noted too, having worked with other people on the autism spectrum or with ADD As such, ADD and ADHD meds affects someone on the Autism spectrum differently, and depending on physical development.
- gozur88 9y ago
  >I have a good friend who has ADD and is of a similar opinion as you. He has strong libertarian leanings and I asked him how does he reconcile his political philosophy with his use of ADD medication. What an odd thing to ask. Libertarians aren't 7th Day Adventists. Why would there be a conflict between Libertarianism and medication?
  - hosh 9y ago
    It's not a conflict between Libertarianism and medication. It's a question of the role medical technologies (or any technologies) in opportunity and liberty. If we come from the frame that certain mental conditions are neuro-chemically-based, and that these conditions prevent someone from being able to be productive members of society, medication might be seen akin to the freedom to participate in a market economy. When I asked my friend that, I was probing for underlying narratives. From my perspective, there seems to be a heroic element to libertarian narratives, one in which medication like this seem to cheat.
    - gozur88 9y ago
      I don't know where you're getting that. Even in the case where the drug provides a big advantage to perfectly healthy people the libertarian position is going to be "society has no business dictating what you put in your body".
- rtpg 9y ago
  Yeah, it's pretty interesting how many ADD/ADHD meds have completely different effects for those with or without the disorder. As I've read more into this, I've found that "better" indicators of the disorder is more around impulsive behavior (lack of concentration being such a difficult thing to quantify, nobody's concentrated!). Dr Charles Barkley [0] has a decent amount of talks on youtube about this misnaming (and other aspects like hereditary natures). Depending on where along the ASD spectrum your daughter might be, this might be harder to figure out though. I can understand being a bit skeptical about this. I hope you can work out what's best for your daughter (and hopefully keep her engaged and aware of what's out there). [0]: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wg6cfsnmqyg&index=2&list=PLzBixSjmbc8eFl6UX5_wWGP8i0mAs-cvY https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wg6cfsnmqyg&index=2&list=PLz...

by rtpg 9y ago

hosh 9y ago

Fair enough, thanks for sharing. I have a good friend who has ADD and is of a similar opinion as you. He has strong libertarian leanings and I asked him how does he reconcile his political philosophy with his use of ADD medication. He told me he considers it as getting him to the same starting line as everyone else. My own experiences with therapy relate more with meditation and concentration exercises rather than CBT (I kinda doubt CBT works for ADD and ADHD, though I'm not basing that opinion on science). I don't know to what extent meditation and concentration exercises helps with ADD though there are books written about it, and I have talked with at least one person who has ADD and has been practicing it for a while (but I didn't get a chance to ask him how well it works). I know that for myself, someone who does not have ADD or ADHD, the only way to increase control over attention and awareness is mindfulness and concentration. I am also speaking about "concentration exercises" in the classical sense, such as the term "jhana" from India. That is to say, when I am talking about concentration, I am talking about relaxed (rather than forced), one-pointed focus on one concentration object sustained over long periods of time, rather than the conflated sense of "concentration" when speaking casually about it or in the context of academics or work productively. The mindfulness is related to regaining impulse control by being aware of impulses that flow through the mind. The other thing to consider is: Autists tend to be given ADD or ADHD meds, but no one really knows if they actually work for the root cause, because we don't really know the root cause for ASD. The closest neuroscience has to offer as a theory is something called Intense World Theory on Autism. All the other theories on Autism are based on behavioral markers rather than neuroscience. An Autist might _present_ as ADD or ADHD, but they are not quite like that. So here, sample size of 1 opinion: my wife has ADD and my daughter is on the Autism spectrum. They both get distracted. My sense of how and what distracts them when observing them and talking with them tells me it might look the same, but it isn't. It's something our family counselor has noted too, having worked with other people on the autism spectrum or with ADD As such, ADD and ADHD meds affects someone on the Autism spectrum differently, and depending on physical development.

gozur88 9y ago
>I have a good friend who has ADD and is of a similar opinion as you. He has strong libertarian leanings and I asked him how does he reconcile his political philosophy with his use of ADD medication. What an odd thing to ask. Libertarians aren't 7th Day Adventists. Why would there be a conflict between Libertarianism and medication?
- hosh 9y ago
  It's not a conflict between Libertarianism and medication. It's a question of the role medical technologies (or any technologies) in opportunity and liberty. If we come from the frame that certain mental conditions are neuro-chemically-based, and that these conditions prevent someone from being able to be productive members of society, medication might be seen akin to the freedom to participate in a market economy. When I asked my friend that, I was probing for underlying narratives. From my perspective, there seems to be a heroic element to libertarian narratives, one in which medication like this seem to cheat.
  - gozur88 9y ago
    I don't know where you're getting that. Even in the case where the drug provides a big advantage to perfectly healthy people the libertarian position is going to be "society has no business dictating what you put in your body".
rtpg 9y ago
Yeah, it's pretty interesting how many ADD/ADHD meds have completely different effects for those with or without the disorder. As I've read more into this, I've found that "better" indicators of the disorder is more around impulsive behavior (lack of concentration being such a difficult thing to quantify, nobody's concentrated!). Dr Charles Barkley [0] has a decent amount of talks on youtube about this misnaming (and other aspects like hereditary natures). Depending on where along the ASD spectrum your daughter might be, this might be harder to figure out though. I can understand being a bit skeptical about this. I hope you can work out what's best for your daughter (and hopefully keep her engaged and aware of what's out there). [0]: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wg6cfsnmqyg&index=2&list=PLzBixSjmbc8eFl6UX5_wWGP8i0mAs-cvY https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wg6cfsnmqyg&index=2&list=PLz...