4 ms·

"Over the years I've watched various professions devalued to search engines and spreadsheets, from paralegals to accountants. I don't think it's a bad thing. It

by s73ver 9y ago

"Over the years I've watched various professions devalued to search engines and spreadsheets, from paralegals to accountants. I don't think it's a bad thing. It's progress and it's freeing up time." I absolutely despise this argument, because it usually forgets that you can have all the time in the world, and it won't matter if you can't pay your rent or buy food.

mikepurvis 9y ago
Right, but that's the core of the Basic Income argument.
- s73ver 9y ago
  Which is orthogonal to this discussion. Mainly because I don't believe Basic Income would gain any traction in the US. So we need to find other solutions.
  - mikepurvis 9y ago
    It's a matter of correctly framing the discussion. Lots of basic income forms already exist in the US, including: - Pensions - Alaska Permanent Fund - Child tax credits - Stimulus cheques - Social Security - Welfare I just don't think it's a huge stretch to jump from these kinds of payments to an expectation that the government of a wealthy nation would supply all citizens with a stipend. Maybe the phrase "basic income" is too closely associated with socialism... in that case, call it an automation tax credit or something. Once people start receiving the cheques, they'll realize that it's a pretty good deal— kind of like the ACA.
  - jganetsk 9y ago
    > I don't believe Basic Income would gain any traction in the US. The United States House of Representatives passed a Basic Income bill written by Richard Nixon in 1969. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6vHYFzYvCak https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6vHYFzYvCak
    - s73ver 9y ago
      Do you think the same bill today would have anywhere near a chance of passing? I don't.
phkahler 9y ago
>> I absolutely despise this argument, because it usually forgets that you can have all the time in the world, and it won't matter if you can't pay your rent or buy food. Why should one be forced to pay rent or buy food? Just try to live independently in the US, it's not possible. If you want to buy land and grow your own food, the first thing to notice is that property taxes are actually a rent paid to the state. In many areas you're forced to hook up to the city water/sewer system, which is another form of rent. People keep bringing up "basic income" which I think is crap. How about we try to reduce the cost of existence instead, so people can get off the economic treadmill? Then we can work up to our level of comfort rather than have people at the bottom struggle to survive. Everyone would be happier except those who strive to exploit the labor of others. I do not advocate welfare with this, just elimination of as much financial pressure as possible. Eliminating rents is the first step IMHO. This includes phasing out mortgages, which are rents on money that only serve to inflate home prices thereby increasing demand for loans. On this point I am not totally convinced, but I think gradually reducing the percent of sale price than can be borrowed would be a start. I don't know if lowering that to zero is actually optimal, but I suspect 50 percent would be better than where we are today.
- s73ver 9y ago
  "Why should one be forced to pay rent or buy food?" Well, you're not. You don't have to exist. I kinda like existing, though. Yes, yes, utopian society and all that. It's the way things exist now, and while it can be fun to imagine a world without it, it's not entirely practical when trying to figure out a problem for those displaced from automation. "I do not advocate welfare with this, just elimination of as much financial pressure as possible. Eliminating rents is the first step IMHO. This includes phasing out mortgages, which are rents on money that only serve to inflate home prices thereby increasing demand for loans. On this point I am not totally convinced, but I think gradually reducing the percent of sale price than can be borrowed would be a start. I don't know if lowering that to zero is actually optimal, but I suspect 50 percent would be better than where we are today." So nobody but the uber wealthy can buy houses? And how do you eliminate the rent when I live in an apartment?
  - 9y ago

by s73ver 9y ago

mikepurvis 9y ago

Right, but that's the core of the Basic Income argument.

s73ver 9y ago
Which is orthogonal to this discussion. Mainly because I don't believe Basic Income would gain any traction in the US. So we need to find other solutions.
- mikepurvis 9y ago
  It's a matter of correctly framing the discussion. Lots of basic income forms already exist in the US, including: - Pensions - Alaska Permanent Fund - Child tax credits - Stimulus cheques - Social Security - Welfare I just don't think it's a huge stretch to jump from these kinds of payments to an expectation that the government of a wealthy nation would supply all citizens with a stipend. Maybe the phrase "basic income" is too closely associated with socialism... in that case, call it an automation tax credit or something. Once people start receiving the cheques, they'll realize that it's a pretty good deal— kind of like the ACA.
- jganetsk 9y ago
  > I don't believe Basic Income would gain any traction in the US. The United States House of Representatives passed a Basic Income bill written by Richard Nixon in 1969. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6vHYFzYvCak https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6vHYFzYvCak
  - s73ver 9y ago
    Do you think the same bill today would have anywhere near a chance of passing? I don't.

phkahler 9y ago

>> I absolutely despise this argument, because it usually forgets that you can have all the time in the world, and it won't matter if you can't pay your rent or buy food. Why should one be forced to pay rent or buy food? Just try to live independently in the US, it's not possible. If you want to buy land and grow your own food, the first thing to notice is that property taxes are actually a rent paid to the state. In many areas you're forced to hook up to the city water/sewer system, which is another form of rent. People keep bringing up "basic income" which I think is crap. How about we try to reduce the cost of existence instead, so people can get off the economic treadmill? Then we can work up to our level of comfort rather than have people at the bottom struggle to survive. Everyone would be happier except those who strive to exploit the labor of others. I do not advocate welfare with this, just elimination of as much financial pressure as possible. Eliminating rents is the first step IMHO. This includes phasing out mortgages, which are rents on money that only serve to inflate home prices thereby increasing demand for loans. On this point I am not totally convinced, but I think gradually reducing the percent of sale price than can be borrowed would be a start. I don't know if lowering that to zero is actually optimal, but I suspect 50 percent would be better than where we are today.

s73ver 9y ago
"Why should one be forced to pay rent or buy food?" Well, you're not. You don't have to exist. I kinda like existing, though. Yes, yes, utopian society and all that. It's the way things exist now, and while it can be fun to imagine a world without it, it's not entirely practical when trying to figure out a problem for those displaced from automation. "I do not advocate welfare with this, just elimination of as much financial pressure as possible. Eliminating rents is the first step IMHO. This includes phasing out mortgages, which are rents on money that only serve to inflate home prices thereby increasing demand for loans. On this point I am not totally convinced, but I think gradually reducing the percent of sale price than can be borrowed would be a start. I don't know if lowering that to zero is actually optimal, but I suspect 50 percent would be better than where we are today." So nobody but the uber wealthy can buy houses? And how do you eliminate the rent when I live in an apartment?
- 9y ago