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> I'm no xenophobe. As far as I'm concerned, those taxes can go away as soon as China stops crapping all over the environment and starts giving its workers the

by pm90 10y ago

> I'm no xenophobe. As far as I'm concerned, those taxes can go away as soon as China stops crapping all over the environment and starts giving its workers the same rights and wages that we give our workers in the US. That way the playing field would be level, and companies would no longer be able to use free trade to exploit their workers. Its really hard for me to not burn with anger when I see comments like this. The US and the West did the exact same thing that you mention: crap all over their environment and treat workers terribly, to accumulate all the capital in their hands. That capital was re-invested in technology/research and that is the main reason why people in the West have higher standard of living now. And when Europe and US were in the path of industrial development, they DID have high import taxes as well. And now that China is doing essentially the same, you are not OK with that? That's just hypocrisy, plain and simple.

sceew 10y ago
China free-rode off of that investment by adopting Western technology with no virtually no R&D, greatly benefiting.
- pm90 10y ago
  The US did an almost similar thing, riding off European technology with virtually no R&D greatly benefiting. And before that, Europe did a similar thing by riding off Chinese (gunpowder and paper) and Indian (arabic numeral) technology, with virtually no R&D, greatly benefiting.... See how hollow that argument is?
  - ska 10y ago
    The US did an almost similar thing Not an almost similar thing. Effectively the exact same thing, including the flagrant disregard of IP, etc. It's worth thinking about when discussing what countries "should" and "shouldn't" do, as you note.
  - gajjanag 10y ago
    Just to add to the above, this is also reflected in historical GDP figures (pre Renaissance say): https://infogr.am/Share-of-world-GDP-throughout-history https://infogr.am/Share-of-world-GDP-throughout-history
dforrestwilson1 10y ago
What you neglect to mention is that Europe and the US had high import taxes to protect their industries from eachother. Somehow the US still managed to become a superpower. China will be fine if it can transition to a better system of government. Globalization doesn't seem necessary for a country with a huge domestic market. Demanding better working conditions for Foxconn employees is called having a conscience not hypocrisy.
- thablackbull 10y ago
  > China will be fine if it can transition to a better system of government. lol, so the one that brings more and more people out of poverty everyday should suddenly change and adopt the American style of government where more and more people are ending up in poverty? Genius idea mate...
  - pm90 10y ago
    I know this comment has been downvoted, but I think in light of current events it does deserve merit. China has managed to do a spectacular job of lifting its populace from abject poverty... while spectacularly abusing human rights and flagrantly violating rules of law and due process. But the American system, if it continues to be dominated by rich oligarchs...how does it work for the benefit of its weakest citizens? I really hope that it does not turn out that way, but you can't deny that it isn't a possibility, with the current US president calling the media "Enemy no.1", not having any respect for independent judiciary, attacking other religions etc.
    - thablackbull 10y ago
      I purposely came off rude in my comment - probably contributed to the down votes. But I do think it's a big worry for many people here in the west when an ideology that is diametrically opposed to what we are use to over here is not only succeeding but thriving. It feels like people here have already given up; on Reddit, the buzzword is now basic income (i.e., give me free stuff). Pew survey shows Americans are essentially expecting to regress while people in China are very optimistic. "When children today grow up, will they be better off financially than their parents?" http://www.pewglobal.org/database/indicator/74/survey/17/response/Worse+off/ http://www.pewglobal.org/database/indicator/74/survey/17/res... People want change, but they're unwilling to consider anything else - democracy, like all systems have pros and cons. Learning from the successes of China doesn't automatically mean adopting the full ideology.
muninn_ 10y ago
It's also worth mentioning with respect to the environment that they didn't know any better. Now we do. And with respect to treating workers terribly, there was no concept of treating workers well, for the most part. You can't really apply our standards today on people of the past. It's not hypocrisy. It's enlightenment. But let's say you're not ok with it, do you think China should ruin the environment, let kids get their hands cut off working in factories at 13 years old, or die have workers die en mass in industrial accidents and stuff just because the US and Europe did it 100 years ago? You also can't oversimplify "we have a higher standard of living now" based on ruining our environment and treating workers poorly. It is FAR more complicated than that.
- mason240 10y ago
  >And with respect to treating workers terribly, there was no concept of treating workers well, for the most part. This isn't really true. The rapid industrialization that happened in England led much contemporary criticism. It's been an incremental process to get from where we were to where we are now.
- pm90 10y ago
  Let me preface this by saying that I don't in principle agree with poor labor laws or polluting the environment, in fact very much the opposite. I only think that the West cannot claim a high moral ground against China, or any other developing country when it has itself been guilty of the very same practices in the not too distant past. That is by definition, hypocrisy. > It's also worth mentioning with respect to the environment that they didn't know any better. Now we do. Yes, so what do you propose? That China not build power plants to provide a higher standard of living to the masses of Chinese people who desire to benefit from it? Let's remember that currently China is a signatory to the Paris Climate Accord and its Trump who is threatening to withdraw. Lets please stop treating China as the enemy of the environment when its still the West that's responsible for most Greenhouse emissions. > And with respect to treating workers terribly, there was no concept of treating workers well, for the most part. You can't really apply our standards today on people of the past. It's not hypocrisy. It's enlightenment. I mean, come on... people thought that sending kids to work in Coal mines was OK in pre-industrial England? Really? London at one point was a huge slum with regular outbreaks of Cholera. It wasn't like nobody knew that was bad...people just didn't care. And conditions in China, although they are bad for workers, are still better than that. > But let's say you're not ok with it, do you think China should ruin the environment, let kids get their hands cut off working in factories at 13 years old, or die have workers die en mass in industrial accidents and stuff just because the US and Europe did it 100 years ago? You also can't oversimplify "we have a higher standard of living now" based on ruining our environment and treating workers poorly. It is FAR more complicated than that. I didn't advocate for any of that. But it is a fact that Western wealth was built on the backs of extractive industries that exploited the lower classes of their own countries at first, then exploited slaves, and currently exploits low wage workers in developing countries. And for all those reasons its very hypocritical of the West to criticize China.

by pm90 10y ago

sceew 10y ago

China free-rode off of that investment by adopting Western technology with no virtually no R&D, greatly benefiting.

pm90 10y ago
The US did an almost similar thing, riding off European technology with virtually no R&D greatly benefiting. And before that, Europe did a similar thing by riding off Chinese (gunpowder and paper) and Indian (arabic numeral) technology, with virtually no R&D, greatly benefiting.... See how hollow that argument is?
- ska 10y ago
  The US did an almost similar thing Not an almost similar thing. Effectively the exact same thing, including the flagrant disregard of IP, etc. It's worth thinking about when discussing what countries "should" and "shouldn't" do, as you note.
- gajjanag 10y ago
  Just to add to the above, this is also reflected in historical GDP figures (pre Renaissance say): https://infogr.am/Share-of-world-GDP-throughout-history https://infogr.am/Share-of-world-GDP-throughout-history

dforrestwilson1 10y ago

What you neglect to mention is that Europe and the US had high import taxes to protect their industries from eachother. Somehow the US still managed to become a superpower. China will be fine if it can transition to a better system of government. Globalization doesn't seem necessary for a country with a huge domestic market. Demanding better working conditions for Foxconn employees is called having a conscience not hypocrisy.

thablackbull 10y ago
> China will be fine if it can transition to a better system of government. lol, so the one that brings more and more people out of poverty everyday should suddenly change and adopt the American style of government where more and more people are ending up in poverty? Genius idea mate...
- pm90 10y ago
  I know this comment has been downvoted, but I think in light of current events it does deserve merit. China has managed to do a spectacular job of lifting its populace from abject poverty... while spectacularly abusing human rights and flagrantly violating rules of law and due process. But the American system, if it continues to be dominated by rich oligarchs...how does it work for the benefit of its weakest citizens? I really hope that it does not turn out that way, but you can't deny that it isn't a possibility, with the current US president calling the media "Enemy no.1", not having any respect for independent judiciary, attacking other religions etc.
  - thablackbull 10y ago
    I purposely came off rude in my comment - probably contributed to the down votes. But I do think it's a big worry for many people here in the west when an ideology that is diametrically opposed to what we are use to over here is not only succeeding but thriving. It feels like people here have already given up; on Reddit, the buzzword is now basic income (i.e., give me free stuff). Pew survey shows Americans are essentially expecting to regress while people in China are very optimistic. "When children today grow up, will they be better off financially than their parents?" http://www.pewglobal.org/database/indicator/74/survey/17/response/Worse+off/ http://www.pewglobal.org/database/indicator/74/survey/17/res... People want change, but they're unwilling to consider anything else - democracy, like all systems have pros and cons. Learning from the successes of China doesn't automatically mean adopting the full ideology.

muninn_ 10y ago

It's also worth mentioning with respect to the environment that they didn't know any better. Now we do. And with respect to treating workers terribly, there was no concept of treating workers well, for the most part. You can't really apply our standards today on people of the past. It's not hypocrisy. It's enlightenment. But let's say you're not ok with it, do you think China should ruin the environment, let kids get their hands cut off working in factories at 13 years old, or die have workers die en mass in industrial accidents and stuff just because the US and Europe did it 100 years ago? You also can't oversimplify "we have a higher standard of living now" based on ruining our environment and treating workers poorly. It is FAR more complicated than that.

mason240 10y ago
>And with respect to treating workers terribly, there was no concept of treating workers well, for the most part. This isn't really true. The rapid industrialization that happened in England led much contemporary criticism. It's been an incremental process to get from where we were to where we are now.
pm90 10y ago
Let me preface this by saying that I don't in principle agree with poor labor laws or polluting the environment, in fact very much the opposite. I only think that the West cannot claim a high moral ground against China, or any other developing country when it has itself been guilty of the very same practices in the not too distant past. That is by definition, hypocrisy. > It's also worth mentioning with respect to the environment that they didn't know any better. Now we do. Yes, so what do you propose? That China not build power plants to provide a higher standard of living to the masses of Chinese people who desire to benefit from it? Let's remember that currently China is a signatory to the Paris Climate Accord and its Trump who is threatening to withdraw. Lets please stop treating China as the enemy of the environment when its still the West that's responsible for most Greenhouse emissions. > And with respect to treating workers terribly, there was no concept of treating workers well, for the most part. You can't really apply our standards today on people of the past. It's not hypocrisy. It's enlightenment. I mean, come on... people thought that sending kids to work in Coal mines was OK in pre-industrial England? Really? London at one point was a huge slum with regular outbreaks of Cholera. It wasn't like nobody knew that was bad...people just didn't care. And conditions in China, although they are bad for workers, are still better than that. > But let's say you're not ok with it, do you think China should ruin the environment, let kids get their hands cut off working in factories at 13 years old, or die have workers die en mass in industrial accidents and stuff just because the US and Europe did it 100 years ago? You also can't oversimplify "we have a higher standard of living now" based on ruining our environment and treating workers poorly. It is FAR more complicated than that. I didn't advocate for any of that. But it is a fact that Western wealth was built on the backs of extractive industries that exploited the lower classes of their own countries at first, then exploited slaves, and currently exploits low wage workers in developing countries. And for all those reasons its very hypocritical of the West to criticize China.