3 ms·

Economic systems and theories are absolutely devised with goals. Entirely agree the economy is nothing but individuals, that's why capitalism is so ingenious,

Economic systems and theories are absolutely devised with goals. Entirely agree the economy is nothing but individuals, that's why capitalism is so ingenious, but that doesn't mean the system doesn't have a goal.

thesagan 9y ago
The goal is diffused and spread out among ~8 billion people. Theorizing goals is fun, but it doesn't make it a goal anymore than Darwin made "survival" a goal for nature (or life, more narrowly); which isn't always true. (Some species self-sacrifice for reasons outside of self/individual preservation.) There may be a prevailing ideology, I'll admit. In the west, and now most of the world, it seems to be material wealth, as measured in exchange tokens. In the future, in some places, maybe other forms of well-being will come to dominate, perhaps measured in stranger tokens.
- djschnei 9y ago
  We're getting caught up in pretty meaningless semantics here... but maybe your conflating natural individual self interest with the goal of an economic system? They are different things. Capitalism (the economic system) looks to channel individual self interest towards it's most mutually beneficial ends. It looks to maximize productive output of the overall system by channeling natural individual tendencies.
  - thesagan 9y ago
    Econ and politics is rife with semantics, and they're very important, and sometimes central to the conversation. Either way, I think you're the one making the claims that need substantiation. Years of studying econ hasn't provided me clear evidence that upholds the idea that "economies have goals" other than "economies tend to grow in material wealth" – and even that has subtleties too many to thoroughly discuss on an internet forum.
    - djschnei 9y ago
      Economic systems have goals. They're systems devised by men. They don't just throw spaghetti against the wall and call it an economic system. Socialism was designed to accomplish some set of goals, capitalism was designed to accomplish some set of goals. Not really sure how this is an argument...
      - zxcmx 9y ago
        We totally do throw spaghetti at the wall and call the results an "economic system". Neither "capitalism", "communism" nor "socialism" exist except as ill described definitions and abstractions that are misused and abused by academics, politicians and the general public alike. The actual systems we have are a patchwork of contradictory laws, policies and actions by a ton of different parties.
        djschnei 9y ago
        ok, guys. You win. Individuals don't look at public economic policy through ideological lenses and these ideological lenses certainly don't have loosely definable goals. A capitalist and a socialist ideologue, while advocating for public policy, definitely don't have a desired state they are shooting for.
        zxcmx 9y ago
        I apologise, I think I ended up talking past you. When you wrote "economic systems" I read that as a statement about actual economies instead of what you actually wrote.
        djschnei 9y ago
        No worries, don't think I said "system" in my original comment, enough blame to go around :)
      - deleted 9y ago
        [deleted]

thesagan 9y ago

The goal is diffused and spread out among ~8 billion people. Theorizing goals is fun, but it doesn't make it a goal anymore than Darwin made "survival" a goal for nature (or life, more narrowly); which isn't always true. (Some species self-sacrifice for reasons outside of self/individual preservation.) There may be a prevailing ideology, I'll admit. In the west, and now most of the world, it seems to be material wealth, as measured in exchange tokens. In the future, in some places, maybe other forms of well-being will come to dominate, perhaps measured in stranger tokens.

djschnei 9y ago
We're getting caught up in pretty meaningless semantics here... but maybe your conflating natural individual self interest with the goal of an economic system? They are different things. Capitalism (the economic system) looks to channel individual self interest towards it's most mutually beneficial ends. It looks to maximize productive output of the overall system by channeling natural individual tendencies.
- thesagan 9y ago
  Econ and politics is rife with semantics, and they're very important, and sometimes central to the conversation. Either way, I think you're the one making the claims that need substantiation. Years of studying econ hasn't provided me clear evidence that upholds the idea that "economies have goals" other than "economies tend to grow in material wealth" – and even that has subtleties too many to thoroughly discuss on an internet forum.
  - djschnei 9y ago
    Economic systems have goals. They're systems devised by men. They don't just throw spaghetti against the wall and call it an economic system. Socialism was designed to accomplish some set of goals, capitalism was designed to accomplish some set of goals. Not really sure how this is an argument...
    - zxcmx 9y ago
      We totally do throw spaghetti at the wall and call the results an "economic system". Neither "capitalism", "communism" nor "socialism" exist except as ill described definitions and abstractions that are misused and abused by academics, politicians and the general public alike. The actual systems we have are a patchwork of contradictory laws, policies and actions by a ton of different parties.
      - djschnei 9y ago
        ok, guys. You win. Individuals don't look at public economic policy through ideological lenses and these ideological lenses certainly don't have loosely definable goals. A capitalist and a socialist ideologue, while advocating for public policy, definitely don't have a desired state they are shooting for.
        zxcmx 9y ago
        I apologise, I think I ended up talking past you. When you wrote "economic systems" I read that as a statement about actual economies instead of what you actually wrote.
        djschnei 9y ago
        No worries, don't think I said "system" in my original comment, enough blame to go around :)
    - deleted 9y ago
      [deleted]