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> In western countries, those things are "free" because we collectively pay for them. Are you implying that somewhere else, these things are free without someo

> In western countries, those things are "free" because we collectively pay for them. Are you implying that somewhere else, these things are free without someone paying for them? > I can't imagine having to pay for child birth. Really? Should raising a child be free then too? Should everything be "free"? How does that work? Except for rare circumstances, when someone gets pregnant, they choose to get pregnant. It may not be the desired outcome, but if you choose to play with fire, you're just ignorant if you think you can't get burned. It's a proactive choice. So if you don't have the means to deliver the baby (and subsequently raise the child in a positive environment), why did you choose to get pregnant and have the child? Why should everyone else be on the hook for your mistake? Regardless of who pays, children are expensive. Should we really reward people (and yes, that's what the system currently does) who want to make irresponsible decisions and have children they can't afford (in both time and money)? Perhaps you're really pushing for full socialism? Sounds great! How's that working out in Venezuela? > If I have to fight all the time for basic things, then yes, I'll start cheating the system Are you "fighting" to pay your taxes? Are you "fighting" to pay your insurance premiums? We're not talking about a struggle to find the best daycare for your kid; we're talking about paying into a system (whether through the government or an insurance provider) that redistributes wealth from those that can pay to those who "can't", but it only works when people don't abuse the system. And if you have the ability to work, you should be contributing rather than "cheating the system". Otherwise, you're just trying to justify getting something for nothing.

ceejayoz 9y ago
> Are you implying that somewhere else, these things are free without someone paying for them? Free, no, but the rest of the developed world has universal coverage and healthcare that costs half what it does in the US per capita, with similar outcomes. Someone has to pay, yes. The US's way of paying is just horrendously complex, expensive, and inefficient.
- narrowrail 9y ago
  >the rest of the developed world has universal coverage and healthcare Why should every country have the same solution to healthcare? The US was formed as a democracy when 'the rest of the world' was run by monarchs. Healthcare is still a rivalrous good, and if we don't limit it by who can afford it, we will limit by some other ambiguous term like 'need.' My friend's grandma (80 yrs old) just had to fly to the US from Paris to have a surgery for which the French system deemed her ineligible (she was too old).
  - ceejayoz 9y ago
    > Why should every country have the same solution to healthcare? Single-payer systems have a variety of implementations - Australia has a vibrant private insurance industry alongside their public system, whereas Canada forbids it. It's quite clear that the US healthcare variant simply isn't working and isn't sustainable. I pay more for my family's health insurance ($2,000/month) than I pay for my mortgage, and it goes up 10-20% every year (both pre-ACA and post-ACA). We're well past the point of saying "well, that experiment didn't work, what's everyone else doing that works?"
    - narrowrail 9y ago
      We were past that point when Clinton raised the issue in the 90's (or even Bob Dole). I just don't think a federalized system with central control/power is the prudent path to pursue until we get price transparency for healthcare costs.
      - ceejayoz 9y ago
        We already have price transparency for our single-payer system. Medicare pays a specific amount for specific procedures - you can get a full list (https://www.cms.gov/medicare/medicare-fee-for-service-payment/feeschedulegeninfo/ https://www.cms.gov/medicare/medicare-fee-for-service-paymen...). Our current path is demonstrably not prudent, with a good dozen or more examples of what appear to be prudent approaches to draw from.
TYPE_FASTER 9y ago
> Should everything be "free"? No, but I know people who pay for insurance and still have a $4k co-pay for childbirth. > but it only works when people don't abuse the system. It used to be that we paid insurance, and were covered. Now it's we pay insurance, and also pay a larger portion of care than we are used to.
- curiousgeorgio 9y ago
  And why do you think we're paying so much? Either (a) the insurance companies and health care providers are just price gouging[1], or (b) the people who do pay are having to cover the costs for all those non-payers. In this case, both problems are essentially the fault of the government. Choice (a) only happens in a system (like we currently have in the US) where the government imposes artificial limits on competition in the healthcare industry. Choice (b) currently happens because the government mandates that healthcare providers give care to non-paying patients, in addition to the government-sponsored entitlement programs (which often pay providers far less than the actual costs require). [1] If it's just price gouging, then (in a free market) there would be a huge incentive for someone else to enter the market with lower prices; they'd be able to sweep the market overnight - at least until someone else came along to undercut their prices, and we'd all benefit from paying something closer to actual costs. But in the artificially regulated healthcare system of the US, unfortunately this doesn't happen.
  - mgbmtl 9y ago
    Most other countries do a pretty good job controlling health care prices. The situation in the United-States is appalling. Deregulation sometimes works, but here it clearly fails.
    - curiousgeorgio 9y ago
      > Deregulation sometimes works, but here it clearly fails We haven't had a deregulated healthcare industry/market in the United States for a very long time (in fact, "healthcare" as we know it never existed in the US without massive regulation). I'm not sure anyone can make that claim based on real evidence, at least not in the US.

ceejayoz 9y ago

> Are you implying that somewhere else, these things are free without someone paying for them? Free, no, but the rest of the developed world has universal coverage and healthcare that costs half what it does in the US per capita, with similar outcomes. Someone has to pay, yes. The US's way of paying is just horrendously complex, expensive, and inefficient.

narrowrail 9y ago
>the rest of the developed world has universal coverage and healthcare Why should every country have the same solution to healthcare? The US was formed as a democracy when 'the rest of the world' was run by monarchs. Healthcare is still a rivalrous good, and if we don't limit it by who can afford it, we will limit by some other ambiguous term like 'need.' My friend's grandma (80 yrs old) just had to fly to the US from Paris to have a surgery for which the French system deemed her ineligible (she was too old).
- ceejayoz 9y ago
  > Why should every country have the same solution to healthcare? Single-payer systems have a variety of implementations - Australia has a vibrant private insurance industry alongside their public system, whereas Canada forbids it. It's quite clear that the US healthcare variant simply isn't working and isn't sustainable. I pay more for my family's health insurance ($2,000/month) than I pay for my mortgage, and it goes up 10-20% every year (both pre-ACA and post-ACA). We're well past the point of saying "well, that experiment didn't work, what's everyone else doing that works?"
  - narrowrail 9y ago
    We were past that point when Clinton raised the issue in the 90's (or even Bob Dole). I just don't think a federalized system with central control/power is the prudent path to pursue until we get price transparency for healthcare costs.
    - ceejayoz 9y ago
      We already have price transparency for our single-payer system. Medicare pays a specific amount for specific procedures - you can get a full list (https://www.cms.gov/medicare/medicare-fee-for-service-payment/feeschedulegeninfo/ https://www.cms.gov/medicare/medicare-fee-for-service-paymen...). Our current path is demonstrably not prudent, with a good dozen or more examples of what appear to be prudent approaches to draw from.

TYPE_FASTER 9y ago

> Should everything be "free"? No, but I know people who pay for insurance and still have a $4k co-pay for childbirth. > but it only works when people don't abuse the system. It used to be that we paid insurance, and were covered. Now it's we pay insurance, and also pay a larger portion of care than we are used to.

curiousgeorgio 9y ago
And why do you think we're paying so much? Either (a) the insurance companies and health care providers are just price gouging[1], or (b) the people who do pay are having to cover the costs for all those non-payers. In this case, both problems are essentially the fault of the government. Choice (a) only happens in a system (like we currently have in the US) where the government imposes artificial limits on competition in the healthcare industry. Choice (b) currently happens because the government mandates that healthcare providers give care to non-paying patients, in addition to the government-sponsored entitlement programs (which often pay providers far less than the actual costs require). [1] If it's just price gouging, then (in a free market) there would be a huge incentive for someone else to enter the market with lower prices; they'd be able to sweep the market overnight - at least until someone else came along to undercut their prices, and we'd all benefit from paying something closer to actual costs. But in the artificially regulated healthcare system of the US, unfortunately this doesn't happen.
- mgbmtl 9y ago
  Most other countries do a pretty good job controlling health care prices. The situation in the United-States is appalling. Deregulation sometimes works, but here it clearly fails.
  - curiousgeorgio 9y ago
    > Deregulation sometimes works, but here it clearly fails We haven't had a deregulated healthcare industry/market in the United States for a very long time (in fact, "healthcare" as we know it never existed in the US without massive regulation). I'm not sure anyone can make that claim based on real evidence, at least not in the US.