4 ms·

I'm a bit confused by the context. There's nothing wrong with the mindset of expecting free healthcare, but I think it's how you get there that is problematic.

by mgbmtl 9y ago

I'm a bit confused by the context. There's nothing wrong with the mindset of expecting free healthcare, but I think it's how you get there that is problematic. In western countries, those things are "free" because we collectively pay for them. I can't imagine having to pay for child birth. It's just something we are collectively responsible for, because we try to provide basic human rights to everyone. Same for daycare. As a parent, finding a daycare centre that met basic health standards was one of the most stressful parts of becoming a parent. When the government started subsidizing non-profit daycare, it solved so many problems and made me much more productive at work.

curiousgeorgio 9y ago
> In western countries, those things are "free" because we collectively pay for them. Are you implying that somewhere else, these things are free without someone paying for them? > I can't imagine having to pay for child birth. Really? Should raising a child be free then too? Should everything be "free"? How does that work? Except for rare circumstances, when someone gets pregnant, they choose to get pregnant. It may not be the desired outcome, but if you choose to play with fire, you're just ignorant if you think you can't get burned. It's a proactive choice. So if you don't have the means to deliver the baby (and subsequently raise the child in a positive environment), why did you choose to get pregnant and have the child? Why should everyone else be on the hook for your mistake? Regardless of who pays, children are expensive. Should we really reward people (and yes, that's what the system currently does) who want to make irresponsible decisions and have children they can't afford (in both time and money)? Perhaps you're really pushing for full socialism? Sounds great! How's that working out in Venezuela? > If I have to fight all the time for basic things, then yes, I'll start cheating the system Are you "fighting" to pay your taxes? Are you "fighting" to pay your insurance premiums? We're not talking about a struggle to find the best daycare for your kid; we're talking about paying into a system (whether through the government or an insurance provider) that redistributes wealth from those that can pay to those who "can't", but it only works when people don't abuse the system. And if you have the ability to work, you should be contributing rather than "cheating the system". Otherwise, you're just trying to justify getting something for nothing.
- ceejayoz 9y ago
  > Are you implying that somewhere else, these things are free without someone paying for them? Free, no, but the rest of the developed world has universal coverage and healthcare that costs half what it does in the US per capita, with similar outcomes. Someone has to pay, yes. The US's way of paying is just horrendously complex, expensive, and inefficient.
  - narrowrail 9y ago
    >the rest of the developed world has universal coverage and healthcare Why should every country have the same solution to healthcare? The US was formed as a democracy when 'the rest of the world' was run by monarchs. Healthcare is still a rivalrous good, and if we don't limit it by who can afford it, we will limit by some other ambiguous term like 'need.' My friend's grandma (80 yrs old) just had to fly to the US from Paris to have a surgery for which the French system deemed her ineligible (she was too old).
    - ceejayoz 9y ago
      > Why should every country have the same solution to healthcare? Single-payer systems have a variety of implementations - Australia has a vibrant private insurance industry alongside their public system, whereas Canada forbids it. It's quite clear that the US healthcare variant simply isn't working and isn't sustainable. I pay more for my family's health insurance ($2,000/month) than I pay for my mortgage, and it goes up 10-20% every year (both pre-ACA and post-ACA). We're well past the point of saying "well, that experiment didn't work, what's everyone else doing that works?"
      - narrowrail 9y ago
        We were past that point when Clinton raised the issue in the 90's (or even Bob Dole). I just don't think a federalized system with central control/power is the prudent path to pursue until we get price transparency for healthcare costs.

by mgbmtl 9y ago

curiousgeorgio 9y ago

> In western countries, those things are "free" because we collectively pay for them. Are you implying that somewhere else, these things are free without someone paying for them? > I can't imagine having to pay for child birth. Really? Should raising a child be free then too? Should everything be "free"? How does that work? Except for rare circumstances, when someone gets pregnant, they choose to get pregnant. It may not be the desired outcome, but if you choose to play with fire, you're just ignorant if you think you can't get burned. It's a proactive choice. So if you don't have the means to deliver the baby (and subsequently raise the child in a positive environment), why did you choose to get pregnant and have the child? Why should everyone else be on the hook for your mistake? Regardless of who pays, children are expensive. Should we really reward people (and yes, that's what the system currently does) who want to make irresponsible decisions and have children they can't afford (in both time and money)? Perhaps you're really pushing for full socialism? Sounds great! How's that working out in Venezuela? > If I have to fight all the time for basic things, then yes, I'll start cheating the system Are you "fighting" to pay your taxes? Are you "fighting" to pay your insurance premiums? We're not talking about a struggle to find the best daycare for your kid; we're talking about paying into a system (whether through the government or an insurance provider) that redistributes wealth from those that can pay to those who "can't", but it only works when people don't abuse the system. And if you have the ability to work, you should be contributing rather than "cheating the system". Otherwise, you're just trying to justify getting something for nothing.

ceejayoz 9y ago
> Are you implying that somewhere else, these things are free without someone paying for them? Free, no, but the rest of the developed world has universal coverage and healthcare that costs half what it does in the US per capita, with similar outcomes. Someone has to pay, yes. The US's way of paying is just horrendously complex, expensive, and inefficient.
- narrowrail 9y ago
  >the rest of the developed world has universal coverage and healthcare Why should every country have the same solution to healthcare? The US was formed as a democracy when 'the rest of the world' was run by monarchs. Healthcare is still a rivalrous good, and if we don't limit it by who can afford it, we will limit by some other ambiguous term like 'need.' My friend's grandma (80 yrs old) just had to fly to the US from Paris to have a surgery for which the French system deemed her ineligible (she was too old).
  - ceejayoz 9y ago
    > Why should every country have the same solution to healthcare? Single-payer systems have a variety of implementations - Australia has a vibrant private insurance industry alongside their public system, whereas Canada forbids it. It's quite clear that the US healthcare variant simply isn't working and isn't sustainable. I pay more for my family's health insurance ($2,000/month) than I pay for my mortgage, and it goes up 10-20% every year (both pre-ACA and post-ACA). We're well past the point of saying "well, that experiment didn't work, what's everyone else doing that works?"
    - narrowrail 9y ago
      We were past that point when Clinton raised the issue in the 90's (or even Bob Dole). I just don't think a federalized system with central control/power is the prudent path to pursue until we get price transparency for healthcare costs.