4 ms·

My wife was a teacher for middle school youth who were in state custody (or had other behavioral issues), and all of her students were raised with the exact sam

My wife was a teacher for middle school youth who were in state custody (or had other behavioral issues), and all of her students were raised with the exact same approach to healthcare as your co-worker. "Why pay for anything when you don't have to?" When my wife was about to deliver our first child, she mentioned to her students how the hospital bills can be expensive. Her students were absolutely dumbfounded that anyone would actually pay out-of-pocket (with or without insurance) for a baby delivery. They almost couldn't comprehend the idea that anyone other than the government actually pays for this stuff. Many of those same students came from large families where a single mother literally chose to have many children (with random fathers) in order to qualify for more state-funded entitlements, and unfortunately, that whole mindset evidently perpetuates itself through the generations as kids grow up and expect to repeat the process. And of course, their votes count the same as my vote.

Pigo 9y ago
I know exactly what you're talking about. When I went to setup a payment arrangement for my son's delivery, the hospital acted like they didn't know what to do with me. I had to call and explain what I was even doing every time I tried to make a payment. Eventually I got with a representative who helped me figure it out, but I was left with the distinct impression that I was the only idiot in my county who pays for that. In the midst of all this partisan debate about what will work best, I keep feeling like nothing can sustain a system that allows so much abuse.
mgbmtl 9y ago
I'm a bit confused by the context. There's nothing wrong with the mindset of expecting free healthcare, but I think it's how you get there that is problematic. In western countries, those things are "free" because we collectively pay for them. I can't imagine having to pay for child birth. It's just something we are collectively responsible for, because we try to provide basic human rights to everyone. Same for daycare. As a parent, finding a daycare centre that met basic health standards was one of the most stressful parts of becoming a parent. When the government started subsidizing non-profit daycare, it solved so many problems and made me much more productive at work.
- curiousgeorgio 9y ago
  > In western countries, those things are "free" because we collectively pay for them. Are you implying that somewhere else, these things are free without someone paying for them? > I can't imagine having to pay for child birth. Really? Should raising a child be free then too? Should everything be "free"? How does that work? Except for rare circumstances, when someone gets pregnant, they choose to get pregnant. It may not be the desired outcome, but if you choose to play with fire, you're just ignorant if you think you can't get burned. It's a proactive choice. So if you don't have the means to deliver the baby (and subsequently raise the child in a positive environment), why did you choose to get pregnant and have the child? Why should everyone else be on the hook for your mistake? Regardless of who pays, children are expensive. Should we really reward people (and yes, that's what the system currently does) who want to make irresponsible decisions and have children they can't afford (in both time and money)? Perhaps you're really pushing for full socialism? Sounds great! How's that working out in Venezuela? > If I have to fight all the time for basic things, then yes, I'll start cheating the system Are you "fighting" to pay your taxes? Are you "fighting" to pay your insurance premiums? We're not talking about a struggle to find the best daycare for your kid; we're talking about paying into a system (whether through the government or an insurance provider) that redistributes wealth from those that can pay to those who "can't", but it only works when people don't abuse the system. And if you have the ability to work, you should be contributing rather than "cheating the system". Otherwise, you're just trying to justify getting something for nothing.
  - ceejayoz 9y ago
    > Are you implying that somewhere else, these things are free without someone paying for them? Free, no, but the rest of the developed world has universal coverage and healthcare that costs half what it does in the US per capita, with similar outcomes. Someone has to pay, yes. The US's way of paying is just horrendously complex, expensive, and inefficient.
    - narrowrail 9y ago
      >the rest of the developed world has universal coverage and healthcare Why should every country have the same solution to healthcare? The US was formed as a democracy when 'the rest of the world' was run by monarchs. Healthcare is still a rivalrous good, and if we don't limit it by who can afford it, we will limit by some other ambiguous term like 'need.' My friend's grandma (80 yrs old) just had to fly to the US from Paris to have a surgery for which the French system deemed her ineligible (she was too old).
geppeto 9y ago
> And of course, their votes count the same as my vote. But your political influence is much greater with money The popular vote is for welfare clones
- sctb 9y ago
  Please stop violating the guidelines. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
  - geppeto 9y ago
    I didn't violate any comment guidelines, which one did I violate? I think I added to the conversation and this is a also a reality I live in. Kickback and relax, emphasis on kickback, is way more effective in creating favorable political situations for me and everyone I know, than a popular vote. Some jurisdictions formalize it with synonyms, others don't. Do I have to write massive disclaimers and sources for accepted reality just to avoid being shadowbanned?
    - sctb 9y ago
      But you didn't say that. Your comment was unsubstantive (like many of your previous ones) and inflammatory. I don't know exactly what you meant by "welfare clones" but it does give the suspicion of incivility.

Pigo 9y ago

I know exactly what you're talking about. When I went to setup a payment arrangement for my son's delivery, the hospital acted like they didn't know what to do with me. I had to call and explain what I was even doing every time I tried to make a payment. Eventually I got with a representative who helped me figure it out, but I was left with the distinct impression that I was the only idiot in my county who pays for that. In the midst of all this partisan debate about what will work best, I keep feeling like nothing can sustain a system that allows so much abuse.

mgbmtl 9y ago

I'm a bit confused by the context. There's nothing wrong with the mindset of expecting free healthcare, but I think it's how you get there that is problematic. In western countries, those things are "free" because we collectively pay for them. I can't imagine having to pay for child birth. It's just something we are collectively responsible for, because we try to provide basic human rights to everyone. Same for daycare. As a parent, finding a daycare centre that met basic health standards was one of the most stressful parts of becoming a parent. When the government started subsidizing non-profit daycare, it solved so many problems and made me much more productive at work.

curiousgeorgio 9y ago
> In western countries, those things are "free" because we collectively pay for them. Are you implying that somewhere else, these things are free without someone paying for them? > I can't imagine having to pay for child birth. Really? Should raising a child be free then too? Should everything be "free"? How does that work? Except for rare circumstances, when someone gets pregnant, they choose to get pregnant. It may not be the desired outcome, but if you choose to play with fire, you're just ignorant if you think you can't get burned. It's a proactive choice. So if you don't have the means to deliver the baby (and subsequently raise the child in a positive environment), why did you choose to get pregnant and have the child? Why should everyone else be on the hook for your mistake? Regardless of who pays, children are expensive. Should we really reward people (and yes, that's what the system currently does) who want to make irresponsible decisions and have children they can't afford (in both time and money)? Perhaps you're really pushing for full socialism? Sounds great! How's that working out in Venezuela? > If I have to fight all the time for basic things, then yes, I'll start cheating the system Are you "fighting" to pay your taxes? Are you "fighting" to pay your insurance premiums? We're not talking about a struggle to find the best daycare for your kid; we're talking about paying into a system (whether through the government or an insurance provider) that redistributes wealth from those that can pay to those who "can't", but it only works when people don't abuse the system. And if you have the ability to work, you should be contributing rather than "cheating the system". Otherwise, you're just trying to justify getting something for nothing.
- ceejayoz 9y ago
  > Are you implying that somewhere else, these things are free without someone paying for them? Free, no, but the rest of the developed world has universal coverage and healthcare that costs half what it does in the US per capita, with similar outcomes. Someone has to pay, yes. The US's way of paying is just horrendously complex, expensive, and inefficient.
  - narrowrail 9y ago
    >the rest of the developed world has universal coverage and healthcare Why should every country have the same solution to healthcare? The US was formed as a democracy when 'the rest of the world' was run by monarchs. Healthcare is still a rivalrous good, and if we don't limit it by who can afford it, we will limit by some other ambiguous term like 'need.' My friend's grandma (80 yrs old) just had to fly to the US from Paris to have a surgery for which the French system deemed her ineligible (she was too old).

geppeto 9y ago

> And of course, their votes count the same as my vote. But your political influence is much greater with money The popular vote is for welfare clones

sctb 9y ago
Please stop violating the guidelines. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
- geppeto 9y ago
  I didn't violate any comment guidelines, which one did I violate? I think I added to the conversation and this is a also a reality I live in. Kickback and relax, emphasis on kickback, is way more effective in creating favorable political situations for me and everyone I know, than a popular vote. Some jurisdictions formalize it with synonyms, others don't. Do I have to write massive disclaimers and sources for accepted reality just to avoid being shadowbanned?
  - sctb 9y ago
    But you didn't say that. Your comment was unsubstantive (like many of your previous ones) and inflammatory. I don't know exactly what you meant by "welfare clones" but it does give the suspicion of incivility.