10 ms·

Why I shut down wizards.town and left Mastodon

67 points by imartin2k 10y ago

ColinWright 10y ago
From the article: So I opened up a server and started monitoring it. I invited any kind of user in with a strict “no rules” policy. That's admirable, but these days it's totally naïve. Seriously, how can anyone with any experience at all of on-line communities believe that this could ever end well? ... I would need to monitor what my users are saying at all times, ... goes against my hands off approach. So I’m closing the server ... In today's world you either facilitate people doing some things that are utterly vile, or you monitor, constrain, curate, and censor. You can't blame Mastodon for this (although the author never explicitly said they did blame Mastodon, I feel that it's the impression they want to give).
- gus_massa 10y ago
  I agree. Moreover, one of the thing that surprise me is when someone tries to make a clone of HN and totally forget about the moderation work that is necessary.
- rexpop 10y ago
  The author also points out there were people on other instances who would be posting things that I could get into trouble for since my server holds a cache of the other servers. And so his own moderation would be insufficient, in his eyes, to disculpate him.
  - onion2k 10y ago
    Federating content on the public internet is a hard problem. That doesn't mean it's unsolvable though. Currently the only working the solution so far is massive human effort - that just puts managing a Mastodon instance outside of the possibility of doing it on your own. If you want to run a server you really need to recruit people to help. Mastodon makes it very easy to block users on other servers, and entire servers, so it's really a matter of further moderation rather than being actually impossible. There's also an effort by Mastodon admin to share a list of the potentially dangerous servers so admin can block them if they wish to.
    - djsumdog 10y ago
      So does Mastodon cache everything, even people you don't visit/follow? ZeroNet only serves sites you actively visit, correct? I have been meaning to setup a Mastodon server, but haven't gotten around to it yet. Can't you just chose to help cache/serve content for only people you trust/follow?
      - detaro 10y ago
        Who is "you" in your question? It serves any content a user on your instance follows (unless explicitly blocked).
    - arxpoetica 10y ago
      My thoughts on this kind of federated gate keeping is that it should always be opt in. Explicit gate keeping in other words. In general though, this doesn't seem to be the inclination?
      - ColinWright 10y ago
        I'd be interested to know what you're suggesting here. The way Mastodon works is that on a given instance there is a local timeline, and you can see everything people toot on that. Additionally, anything tooted by a followee of a local user appears in the federated timeline, as does anything boosted by a local user. It seems obvious that these are desirable features. What sort of gate-keeping are you suggesting? Things tooted on other instances don't turn up unless there's a reason - what then would you then require in addition?
        arxpoetica 10y ago
        I probably don't understand Mastodon well enough so I might be tooting misinformation. ;) But to answer your question (and I'm probably oversimplifying a problem here), imagine Mastodon was more like WordPress, and less a bunch of federated servers. I set up a site, just for me, and "opt in" who I want to see—and no one else gets through. If you're worried about someone's content, just oust them/unfollow. Granted, this kind of federation requires a centralized follow tree which would have to be hosted somewhere else...OR with a different set of federated sites...(getting complex here)...
aub3bhat 10y ago
I think Mastodon is going to crash and burn just like 100 other clones before it (remember the black and white artistic FB clone by hipster cycle manufacturer, or App.NET), but in process its going to teach a lot of wide-eyed naive optimists about the sad reality of human nature, and need for things like moderation, rules etc.
- narrowrail 10y ago
  The idea that it has never worked before so it will never work at all has been debunked WRT internet services too many times to count. Mastodon is part of the decentralized social web that doesn't need to profit, nor grow large to provide value to its members.
- zanny 10y ago
  It is still ostatus. It won't go away. Mastodon is just a pretty GUI for it.
- djsumdog 10y ago
  And Linux will never be more than a hobby operating system. It's just a toy. You can't run real servers and embedded apps off of it. /s
  - acdha 10y ago
    A better comparison is Linux on the desktop: I've been assured it's been about to happen for the last two decades by programmers who thought the hard part was writing a kernel when in reality it was all of “boring” work offering a decent user experience. Similarly, anyone who starts a social project and talks about tech is almost certain to fail, no matter whether they're a bunch of OSS developers or Google, unless they have put even more time into the actual key problem: good user experience. If you don't have a solid story for how people will find other people they want to interact with, what reasons they have to interact in the first place, and how you'll deal with abuse, nothing else will matter.
- throwanem 10y ago
  > the black and white artistic FB clone by hipster cycle manufacturer Ello?
moron4hire 10y ago
I've been a bit torn on Mastodon. It's a very interesting idea and a few performance issues aside, quite an impressive bit of technology. That federation works at all is a pleasant surprise. I've had good conversations in the "fediverse". Engagement is super high. I've had more comments, reshares, and off-site link follows from 70 people on Mastodon than 700 people on Twitter. But I've also had a higher proportion of bad conversations than on Twitter. I guess there is a bit of a hollowing out of the middle that happens, as it takes effort to switch, so only people who feel strongly about staying on Twitter are going to go. There's also way too much meta-discussion on Mastodon. Childish phrasing like "that bird site" instead of just saying Twitter. Too much back clapping about how amazing the fediverse is. Too much hand-wringing about what any of it means. Too much bitching about how blocking CP is "as bad as Twitter." Too much complaining about GNU Social not getting its day and trying to say Mastodon is just GNU Social (they are not the same thing, they have OStatus in common). I largely don't talk on Mastodon now because I just don't want to talk about Mastodon. What I want right now is just my Twitter followers/followings with the 500 character post length of Mastodon. Use UX design to encourage brevity, but enable longer form when it's desired.
- Analemma_ 10y ago
  > There's also way too much meta-discussion on Mastodon. Childish phrasing like "that bird site" instead of just saying Twitter. Too much back clapping about how amazing the fediverse is. Too much hand-wringing about what any of it means. Too much bitching about how blocking CP is "as bad as Twitter." This is exactly the same problem Voat had. Unfortunately it's pretty much inevitable whenever any kind of online space is explicitly founded as "[existing service], but without moderation!". Almost by definition, the people who are going to go there first, and form the basic norms of the community, are going to be the people who felt the impact of moderation on the old service-- i.e., trolls, immature brats, and people who want to post CP. Freedom of speech is good, but it has to be a "background virtue": any online community explicitly founded on freedom of speech is going to be a garbage fire.
  - detaro 10y ago
    > any kind of online space is explicitly founded as "[existing service], but without moderation!". I don't think that's a fair characterization of Mastodon. But that's how many users see it, because that's how it has been advertised to them by media and other users. (And some instances have taken it as a slogan or a goal, e.g. apparently the authors)
deleted 10y ago
[deleted]
ue_ 10y ago
This is rather tangentially related, and may be an unpopular opinion, but I think it is silly that drawings of fictional characters who appear to be under the age of 18, nude or engaged in sexual activity, is posing such a legal issue. It's very strange and in my opinion ridiculous that such material is illegal. Though I can understand the wider application to materials not allowed to be possessed, there isn't much that a single instance owner can do other than to shut out the whole federation aspect of Mastodon, which would be a great loss and simply centralise things again. If the metadata could somehow be moved from the server to the client, or the client chooses to whom to subscribe and post to, wouldn't that be better? Why is it done on the server side? Edit: it would be nice if people could please explain downvotes, so I know how to better improve the posts I write. Downvoting itself is not helpful to this understanding.
- strictnein 10y ago
  Off topic and not something people are likely going to want to discuss on a forum most of us visit from work.
  - ue_ 10y ago
    Yet there are much "worse" articles posted here, or at least there have been. There was an article about Falkvinge arguing to legalise photographic child pornography, which was posted here. It got a large number of upvotes. This article inside it talks about the issue. The issue doesn't have to be discussed right now, it can be discussed when people at home. People don't have to even look at my comment, though in my judgment it seems as though you might find any sort of discussion when you go to a HN comments thread, some unsavory. There's also a lot of people who aren't viewing from work. I'm not asking people to discuss my point, though just because you don't want to discuss, it doesn't mean the correct response is to downvote my comment. It is tangentially related, and frequently we find even more 'off topic' posts getting upvoted, such as even those about the website's JS and CSS quirks. My point ties in well with why certain content can't be carried, which is in line or at least related to the article itself. I'm really failing to see your point, and it doesn't justify the downvotes.
jack_jennings 10y ago
In a nutshell—don't run a social network of any kind if you don't have the financial backing for all the mess that comes with running a social network.
RunningDroid 10y ago
I think this is where NNTPchan (and to some extent imageboard culture itself) helps with working around legal issues. On imageboards content is confined to relevant boards e.g. posts about anime would go on /a/(anime) not /k/(weapons) unless they are weapon-themed anime. In addition posting illegal/unsavory content (e.g. cp or gore) on boards it doesn't belong is usually considered a ban-worthy offence. The way NNTPchan specifically helps is by letting the server admin decide which boards are permitted, so NNTPchan servers have the option to not handle any content related to /loli/ or any other boards that could get them into legal trouble.
- ggggtez 10y ago
  You still need moderators to enforce the rules. No one is claiming it's impossible, just not by 1 person.
- lnanek2 10y ago
  Not to mention that the last time I worked on image board code there was a list of auto-ban rules the server checked on posting, which included the MD5s of child porn. Posters may be more sophisticated now, tweaking a pixel to make the hashes not match, but there is software that can match the background scenery now with the illegal part removed that can catch even that. We didn't have an auto-ban list for drawings of it, though. That was up to the normal human moderation.
  - cvwright 10y ago
    Microsoft has this service called PhotoDNA [1] that uses a perceptual hash to match bad content in photos, even when the image has been modified. It sounds pretty cool. [1] https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/PhotoDNA/Default https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/PhotoDNA/Default
badthingfactory 10y ago
It makes me sad to think about how much better software could be if we didn't have to worry about terrible people.
- ericHosick 10y ago
  The world in general for that matter.
- pg_is_a_butt 10y ago
  hitler thought the jews were terrible.
s73ver 10y ago
Thus proving that moderation isn't something you can just ignore or leave to the community. You need to be proactive, and doing that takes time, effort, and maybe money.
Sir_Cmpwn 10y ago
This issue seems overblown, and I'm not surprised. Child porn is a great trigger word for making people approach an issue emotionally. I'd like to challenge everyone to take a few steps back and look at it more rationally instead. Many people who are concerned about their own instances probably does not have to worry [1]. I disagree with anyone taking the moral high road here too - I think it's disingenuous to call this "child porn" and illicit all of the emotional hatred that it implies when no children are being abused and it's legal to create, posess, and distribute in many countries. The issue at hand is simply that it doesn't make sense for Mastodon to mirror content posted from other instances. It could be CP, or it could be a copyrighted work, doesn't matter. While this is clearly an issue to be resolved, it's been overhyped and a resolution is underway. I think any court would be friendly to a defendant who mirrored illegal content unintentionally through the behavior of their software in the meantime. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legal_status_of_drawn_pornography_depicting_minors https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legal_status_of_drawn_pornogra...
- Jare 10y ago
  "Probably" and "I think any court would be friendly" do not cut it, not even close, when your life could end up in ruins.
  - Mithaldu 10y ago
    In your opinion, what's the difference between a mastodon instance having such contents because a user posted it; and twitter having such contents because a user posted it?
    - snerbles 10y ago
      Twitter can afford an army of lawyers.
      - djsumdog 10y ago
        Not only that, companies like Twitter, Facebook, Google and Microsoft have full time people dedicated to dealing specifically with illegal content. They don't have many full-time employees (they can't as these positions often require very specific contracts with the Department of Justice for handling this type of evidence) which has resulted in at least two cases of employees sustaining pretty bad mental health problems: http://mashable.com/2017/01/13/microsoft-employees-sue-ptsd-child-porn/#DL5BmAA6wsq2 http://mashable.com/2017/01/13/microsoft-employees-sue-ptsd-...
zokier 10y ago
I'm not sure why the author sees the only alternatives to be "run open no-rules server" and "packing my bags and saying goodbye". Running personal server for yourself and possibly few friends&family should sidestep most of the legal/moral issues (I imagine), so why not do that?
Grue3 10y ago
It's insteresting because the Japanese instance the post is talking about (pawoo.net, backed by Pixiv) is by far the largest Mastodon instance in the world. In fact, 3 out of 4 biggest instances are Japanese. [1] [1] https://instances.mastodon.xyz/list https://instances.mastodon.xyz/list
kelvin0 10y ago
TL;DR: It's a thankless job to try and remove urine from an olympic pool, especially when there are no rules set for the swimmers.

67 points by imartin2k 10y ago

From the article: So I opened up a server and started monitoring it. I invited any kind of user in with a strict “no rules” policy. That's admirable, but these days it's totally naïve. Seriously, how can anyone with any experience at all of on-line communities believe that this could ever end well? ... I would need to monitor what my users are saying at all times, ... goes against my hands off approach. So I’m closing the server ... In today's world you either facilitate people doing some things that are utterly vile, or you monitor, constrain, curate, and censor. You can't blame Mastodon for this (although the author never explicitly said they did blame Mastodon, I feel that it's the impression they want to give).

gus_massa 10y ago
I agree. Moreover, one of the thing that surprise me is when someone tries to make a clone of HN and totally forget about the moderation work that is necessary.
rexpop 10y ago
The author also points out there were people on other instances who would be posting things that I could get into trouble for since my server holds a cache of the other servers. And so his own moderation would be insufficient, in his eyes, to disculpate him.
- onion2k 10y ago
  Federating content on the public internet is a hard problem. That doesn't mean it's unsolvable though. Currently the only working the solution so far is massive human effort - that just puts managing a Mastodon instance outside of the possibility of doing it on your own. If you want to run a server you really need to recruit people to help. Mastodon makes it very easy to block users on other servers, and entire servers, so it's really a matter of further moderation rather than being actually impossible. There's also an effort by Mastodon admin to share a list of the potentially dangerous servers so admin can block them if they wish to.
  - djsumdog 10y ago
    So does Mastodon cache everything, even people you don't visit/follow? ZeroNet only serves sites you actively visit, correct? I have been meaning to setup a Mastodon server, but haven't gotten around to it yet. Can't you just chose to help cache/serve content for only people you trust/follow?
    - detaro 10y ago
      Who is "you" in your question? It serves any content a user on your instance follows (unless explicitly blocked).
  - arxpoetica 10y ago
    My thoughts on this kind of federated gate keeping is that it should always be opt in. Explicit gate keeping in other words. In general though, this doesn't seem to be the inclination?
    - ColinWright 10y ago
      I'd be interested to know what you're suggesting here. The way Mastodon works is that on a given instance there is a local timeline, and you can see everything people toot on that. Additionally, anything tooted by a followee of a local user appears in the federated timeline, as does anything boosted by a local user. It seems obvious that these are desirable features. What sort of gate-keeping are you suggesting? Things tooted on other instances don't turn up unless there's a reason - what then would you then require in addition?
      - arxpoetica 10y ago
        I probably don't understand Mastodon well enough so I might be tooting misinformation. ;) But to answer your question (and I'm probably oversimplifying a problem here), imagine Mastodon was more like WordPress, and less a bunch of federated servers. I set up a site, just for me, and "opt in" who I want to see—and no one else gets through. If you're worried about someone's content, just oust them/unfollow. Granted, this kind of federation requires a centralized follow tree which would have to be hosted somewhere else...OR with a different set of federated sites...(getting complex here)...

aub3bhat 10y ago

I think Mastodon is going to crash and burn just like 100 other clones before it (remember the black and white artistic FB clone by hipster cycle manufacturer, or App.NET), but in process its going to teach a lot of wide-eyed naive optimists about the sad reality of human nature, and need for things like moderation, rules etc.

narrowrail 10y ago
The idea that it has never worked before so it will never work at all has been debunked WRT internet services too many times to count. Mastodon is part of the decentralized social web that doesn't need to profit, nor grow large to provide value to its members.
zanny 10y ago
It is still ostatus. It won't go away. Mastodon is just a pretty GUI for it.
djsumdog 10y ago
And Linux will never be more than a hobby operating system. It's just a toy. You can't run real servers and embedded apps off of it. /s
- acdha 10y ago
  A better comparison is Linux on the desktop: I've been assured it's been about to happen for the last two decades by programmers who thought the hard part was writing a kernel when in reality it was all of “boring” work offering a decent user experience. Similarly, anyone who starts a social project and talks about tech is almost certain to fail, no matter whether they're a bunch of OSS developers or Google, unless they have put even more time into the actual key problem: good user experience. If you don't have a solid story for how people will find other people they want to interact with, what reasons they have to interact in the first place, and how you'll deal with abuse, nothing else will matter.
throwanem 10y ago
> the black and white artistic FB clone by hipster cycle manufacturer Ello?

moron4hire 10y ago

I've been a bit torn on Mastodon. It's a very interesting idea and a few performance issues aside, quite an impressive bit of technology. That federation works at all is a pleasant surprise. I've had good conversations in the "fediverse". Engagement is super high. I've had more comments, reshares, and off-site link follows from 70 people on Mastodon than 700 people on Twitter. But I've also had a higher proportion of bad conversations than on Twitter. I guess there is a bit of a hollowing out of the middle that happens, as it takes effort to switch, so only people who feel strongly about staying on Twitter are going to go. There's also way too much meta-discussion on Mastodon. Childish phrasing like "that bird site" instead of just saying Twitter. Too much back clapping about how amazing the fediverse is. Too much hand-wringing about what any of it means. Too much bitching about how blocking CP is "as bad as Twitter." Too much complaining about GNU Social not getting its day and trying to say Mastodon is just GNU Social (they are not the same thing, they have OStatus in common). I largely don't talk on Mastodon now because I just don't want to talk about Mastodon. What I want right now is just my Twitter followers/followings with the 500 character post length of Mastodon. Use UX design to encourage brevity, but enable longer form when it's desired.

Analemma_ 10y ago
> There's also way too much meta-discussion on Mastodon. Childish phrasing like "that bird site" instead of just saying Twitter. Too much back clapping about how amazing the fediverse is. Too much hand-wringing about what any of it means. Too much bitching about how blocking CP is "as bad as Twitter." This is exactly the same problem Voat had. Unfortunately it's pretty much inevitable whenever any kind of online space is explicitly founded as "[existing service], but without moderation!". Almost by definition, the people who are going to go there first, and form the basic norms of the community, are going to be the people who felt the impact of moderation on the old service-- i.e., trolls, immature brats, and people who want to post CP. Freedom of speech is good, but it has to be a "background virtue": any online community explicitly founded on freedom of speech is going to be a garbage fire.
- detaro 10y ago
  > any kind of online space is explicitly founded as "[existing service], but without moderation!". I don't think that's a fair characterization of Mastodon. But that's how many users see it, because that's how it has been advertised to them by media and other users. (And some instances have taken it as a slogan or a goal, e.g. apparently the authors)

deleted 10y ago

[deleted]

ue_ 10y ago

This is rather tangentially related, and may be an unpopular opinion, but I think it is silly that drawings of fictional characters who appear to be under the age of 18, nude or engaged in sexual activity, is posing such a legal issue. It's very strange and in my opinion ridiculous that such material is illegal. Though I can understand the wider application to materials not allowed to be possessed, there isn't much that a single instance owner can do other than to shut out the whole federation aspect of Mastodon, which would be a great loss and simply centralise things again. If the metadata could somehow be moved from the server to the client, or the client chooses to whom to subscribe and post to, wouldn't that be better? Why is it done on the server side? Edit: it would be nice if people could please explain downvotes, so I know how to better improve the posts I write. Downvoting itself is not helpful to this understanding.

strictnein 10y ago
Off topic and not something people are likely going to want to discuss on a forum most of us visit from work.
- ue_ 10y ago
  Yet there are much "worse" articles posted here, or at least there have been. There was an article about Falkvinge arguing to legalise photographic child pornography, which was posted here. It got a large number of upvotes. This article inside it talks about the issue. The issue doesn't have to be discussed right now, it can be discussed when people at home. People don't have to even look at my comment, though in my judgment it seems as though you might find any sort of discussion when you go to a HN comments thread, some unsavory. There's also a lot of people who aren't viewing from work. I'm not asking people to discuss my point, though just because you don't want to discuss, it doesn't mean the correct response is to downvote my comment. It is tangentially related, and frequently we find even more 'off topic' posts getting upvoted, such as even those about the website's JS and CSS quirks. My point ties in well with why certain content can't be carried, which is in line or at least related to the article itself. I'm really failing to see your point, and it doesn't justify the downvotes.

jack_jennings 10y ago

In a nutshell—don't run a social network of any kind if you don't have the financial backing for all the mess that comes with running a social network.

RunningDroid 10y ago

I think this is where NNTPchan (and to some extent imageboard culture itself) helps with working around legal issues. On imageboards content is confined to relevant boards e.g. posts about anime would go on /a/(anime) not /k/(weapons) unless they are weapon-themed anime. In addition posting illegal/unsavory content (e.g. cp or gore) on boards it doesn't belong is usually considered a ban-worthy offence. The way NNTPchan specifically helps is by letting the server admin decide which boards are permitted, so NNTPchan servers have the option to not handle any content related to /loli/ or any other boards that could get them into legal trouble.

ggggtez 10y ago
You still need moderators to enforce the rules. No one is claiming it's impossible, just not by 1 person.
lnanek2 10y ago
Not to mention that the last time I worked on image board code there was a list of auto-ban rules the server checked on posting, which included the MD5s of child porn. Posters may be more sophisticated now, tweaking a pixel to make the hashes not match, but there is software that can match the background scenery now with the illegal part removed that can catch even that. We didn't have an auto-ban list for drawings of it, though. That was up to the normal human moderation.
- cvwright 10y ago
  Microsoft has this service called PhotoDNA [1] that uses a perceptual hash to match bad content in photos, even when the image has been modified. It sounds pretty cool. [1] https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/PhotoDNA/Default https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/PhotoDNA/Default

badthingfactory 10y ago

It makes me sad to think about how much better software could be if we didn't have to worry about terrible people.

ericHosick 10y ago
The world in general for that matter.
pg_is_a_butt 10y ago
hitler thought the jews were terrible.

s73ver 10y ago

Thus proving that moderation isn't something you can just ignore or leave to the community. You need to be proactive, and doing that takes time, effort, and maybe money.

Sir_Cmpwn 10y ago

This issue seems overblown, and I'm not surprised. Child porn is a great trigger word for making people approach an issue emotionally. I'd like to challenge everyone to take a few steps back and look at it more rationally instead. Many people who are concerned about their own instances probably does not have to worry [1]. I disagree with anyone taking the moral high road here too - I think it's disingenuous to call this "child porn" and illicit all of the emotional hatred that it implies when no children are being abused and it's legal to create, posess, and distribute in many countries. The issue at hand is simply that it doesn't make sense for Mastodon to mirror content posted from other instances. It could be CP, or it could be a copyrighted work, doesn't matter. While this is clearly an issue to be resolved, it's been overhyped and a resolution is underway. I think any court would be friendly to a defendant who mirrored illegal content unintentionally through the behavior of their software in the meantime. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legal_status_of_drawn_pornography_depicting_minors https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legal_status_of_drawn_pornogra...

Jare 10y ago
"Probably" and "I think any court would be friendly" do not cut it, not even close, when your life could end up in ruins.
- Mithaldu 10y ago
  In your opinion, what's the difference between a mastodon instance having such contents because a user posted it; and twitter having such contents because a user posted it?
  - snerbles 10y ago
    Twitter can afford an army of lawyers.
    - djsumdog 10y ago
      Not only that, companies like Twitter, Facebook, Google and Microsoft have full time people dedicated to dealing specifically with illegal content. They don't have many full-time employees (they can't as these positions often require very specific contracts with the Department of Justice for handling this type of evidence) which has resulted in at least two cases of employees sustaining pretty bad mental health problems: http://mashable.com/2017/01/13/microsoft-employees-sue-ptsd-child-porn/#DL5BmAA6wsq2 http://mashable.com/2017/01/13/microsoft-employees-sue-ptsd-...

zokier 10y ago

I'm not sure why the author sees the only alternatives to be "run open no-rules server" and "packing my bags and saying goodbye". Running personal server for yourself and possibly few friends&family should sidestep most of the legal/moral issues (I imagine), so why not do that?

Grue3 10y ago

It's insteresting because the Japanese instance the post is talking about (pawoo.net, backed by Pixiv) is by far the largest Mastodon instance in the world. In fact, 3 out of 4 biggest instances are Japanese. [1] [1] https://instances.mastodon.xyz/list https://instances.mastodon.xyz/list

kelvin0 10y ago

TL;DR: It's a thankless job to try and remove urine from an olympic pool, especially when there are no rules set for the swimmers.