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Literally right from the paper: Women are more likely than men to initiate divorces, but women and men are just as likely to end non-marital relationships, ac

Literally right from the paper: Women are more likely than men to initiate divorces, but women and men are just as likely to end non-marital relationships, according to a new study that will be presented at the 110th Annual Meeting of the American Sociological Association (ASA). And later: Social scientists have previously argued that women initiate most divorces because they are more sensitive to relationship difficulties. Rosenfeld argues that were this true, women would initiate the breakup of both marriages and non-marital relationships at equal rate The paper goes on to theorize that the assymetry may be because the institution of marriage (and the social expectations surrounding it) has not caught up with expectations of gender equality, leading women to feel oppressed. And that has absolutely nothing to do with what this article is about, and certainly does not support the claimed sex-assymetry of marital dissatisfaction due to spousal changes that you claim (without evidence) exists.

carsongross 9y ago
Yes, there are many interpretations of the data, as with any social science data. None the less, women end marriage (we are discussing preserving marriage) vastly more frequently than men, and I stand by my interpretation. I doubt very much we will convince one another of much, so I hope only that exposure to an alternative view point helps us both better understand our own thinking.
- deleted 9y ago
  [deleted]
- ktRolster 9y ago
  and I stand by my interpretation I can't figure out what your interpretation is. The picture you linked to in the NYTimes shows a woman who is unhappy her husband didn't live up to her illusions she had during the honeymoon stage. That is something that can happen to men or women. In fact, it used to be a stock joke: the woman who scares her husband without makeup once he finally sees her.
  - carsongross 9y ago
    My interpretation of the data is that women tend to tire more quickly of their husbands and are more likely to end a marriage over it. We have the stock story of the man "trading in" his wife, but as we can see from the statistics, women are much more likely to divorce husbands than vice-versa. (A shocking statistic: 90% of divorces amongst college educated people, presumably the target demographic of the original article, are initiated by the woman.) I think this behavior has its roots in evolution: women have far fewer fertility cycles (which are correspondingly more valuable) and are much less able to remain in a marriage while pursuing other mates. It is not a popular interpretation here, at least not one that is spoken out loud, but I believe it to be reasonable and I think it is worth burning some karma to say so.
    - zzalpha 9y ago
      It is not a popular interpretation here Or supported by the very study you cited. In fact, that study takes a very different tack (again, their study suggests the issue is with power imbalances that form within marriage due to institutionalized gender biases), and the fact you don't seem to realize that supports my theory that you're allowing yourself to fall victim to confirmation bias. For someone who espouses keeping an open mind, you're doing a remarkable job of demonstrating the danger of choosing facts that fit your preconceived notions.
      - carsongross 9y ago
        I would not expect a sociology study to pursue my thesis, as it would be severely career limiting in today's university environment. I will certainly grant that confirmation bias is a risk for all of us, particularly when the hard data is layered on top of something as subjective and open to interpretation as marriage satisfaction.
Spooky23 9y ago
Usually that's more practical. Husbands who leave get tagged as abandoning the family and have an uphill battle getting custody of the children.
- zzalpha 9y ago
  I considered that. But that theory doesn't explain why, in addition to initiating divorce less frequently, married men also report higher levels of relationship satisfaction than women, while unmarried couples report the same levels of satisfaction.
  - Arizhel 9y ago
    I'm guessing it's because even today, married men still expect the women to do all or most of the housework, while also holding a full-time job, so men in marriage get a better deal as long as they're in the marriage, and don't realize how frustrated and unsatisfied the woman is. But they get screwed once divorce happens.
  - Spooky23 9y ago
    Couples who file for divorce are a subset of unhappy marriages. Many people stay unhappily married (or unmarried & together) for a variety of reasons -- my comment was solely intended to reference people who pull that trigger.
  - deleted 9y ago
    [deleted]
sheepmullet 9y ago
> has not caught up with expectations of gender equality, leading women to feel oppressed. Or it could be because women have a financial incentive to initiate divorce. Get rid of child support and alimony and make 50-50 shared custody the default and you will see a different picture.
ardit33 9y ago
You can have different interpretation of the data. COST of a normal break up vs cost of a divorce. There is a huge difference of financial outcomes of a break up between a 7 month relationship and a 7 year marriage. For the 7 months relationship the couple moves on, and no financial re-arrangements happens. For the marriage, there is a much higher chance that the woman: 1) takes custody of the children (if the couple has them) 2) is recipient of child support 3) is recipient of alimony payments You can say that a "divorce" is much more costly to men and hence they are more likeley to stick it out a relationship or try to make it work, but there is less cost to women (financially at least), hence they are more likely to initiate it. Given the current marriage laws are a remnant of the 50s and 60s lifestyle (of women staying home, and needing financial protection in case of divorce), you can argue that the current law framework in the US encourages the initiation of the divorce from women, and discourages that from men. Since no divorce costs are involved in a normal 7 months long relationship, you see men initiating breakups just as much as women. TLDR: Current divorce laws favors women by a long shot, hence they are more likely to initiate it.
- zzalpha 9y ago
  You can have different interpretation of the data. COST of a normal break up vs cost of a divorce. As I said in my other post, I could considered that. But the study diminishes the likelihood of that interpretation. Married men initiate divorce less and report higher relationship satisfaction than women, while unmarried men and women report the same levels of relationship satisfaction. If men initiated divorce less simply because of the cost of divorce, that data does not make sense. You'd expect the same or lower satisfaction than women, but that's not borne out in the data.
  - sheepmullet 9y ago
    > You'd expect the same or lower satisfaction than women, but that's not borne out in the data. Why would you expect that? Having options often decreases satisfaction. If you have a good job that has a few frustrating downsides which situation would make you more satisfied? A) You know all the alternative jobs are a lot worse. Better to try and improve the few frustrating bits. B) You are constantly informed about other great job alternatives. And you know you get to keep a lot of the benefits of the first job if you do change. Most often people in situation A will be more satisfied.

carsongross 9y ago

Yes, there are many interpretations of the data, as with any social science data. None the less, women end marriage (we are discussing preserving marriage) vastly more frequently than men, and I stand by my interpretation. I doubt very much we will convince one another of much, so I hope only that exposure to an alternative view point helps us both better understand our own thinking.

deleted 9y ago
[deleted]
ktRolster 9y ago
and I stand by my interpretation I can't figure out what your interpretation is. The picture you linked to in the NYTimes shows a woman who is unhappy her husband didn't live up to her illusions she had during the honeymoon stage. That is something that can happen to men or women. In fact, it used to be a stock joke: the woman who scares her husband without makeup once he finally sees her.
- carsongross 9y ago
  My interpretation of the data is that women tend to tire more quickly of their husbands and are more likely to end a marriage over it. We have the stock story of the man "trading in" his wife, but as we can see from the statistics, women are much more likely to divorce husbands than vice-versa. (A shocking statistic: 90% of divorces amongst college educated people, presumably the target demographic of the original article, are initiated by the woman.) I think this behavior has its roots in evolution: women have far fewer fertility cycles (which are correspondingly more valuable) and are much less able to remain in a marriage while pursuing other mates. It is not a popular interpretation here, at least not one that is spoken out loud, but I believe it to be reasonable and I think it is worth burning some karma to say so.
  - zzalpha 9y ago
    It is not a popular interpretation here Or supported by the very study you cited. In fact, that study takes a very different tack (again, their study suggests the issue is with power imbalances that form within marriage due to institutionalized gender biases), and the fact you don't seem to realize that supports my theory that you're allowing yourself to fall victim to confirmation bias. For someone who espouses keeping an open mind, you're doing a remarkable job of demonstrating the danger of choosing facts that fit your preconceived notions.
    - carsongross 9y ago
      I would not expect a sociology study to pursue my thesis, as it would be severely career limiting in today's university environment. I will certainly grant that confirmation bias is a risk for all of us, particularly when the hard data is layered on top of something as subjective and open to interpretation as marriage satisfaction.

Spooky23 9y ago

Usually that's more practical. Husbands who leave get tagged as abandoning the family and have an uphill battle getting custody of the children.

zzalpha 9y ago
I considered that. But that theory doesn't explain why, in addition to initiating divorce less frequently, married men also report higher levels of relationship satisfaction than women, while unmarried couples report the same levels of satisfaction.
- Arizhel 9y ago
  I'm guessing it's because even today, married men still expect the women to do all or most of the housework, while also holding a full-time job, so men in marriage get a better deal as long as they're in the marriage, and don't realize how frustrated and unsatisfied the woman is. But they get screwed once divorce happens.
- Spooky23 9y ago
  Couples who file for divorce are a subset of unhappy marriages. Many people stay unhappily married (or unmarried & together) for a variety of reasons -- my comment was solely intended to reference people who pull that trigger.
- deleted 9y ago
  [deleted]

sheepmullet 9y ago

> has not caught up with expectations of gender equality, leading women to feel oppressed. Or it could be because women have a financial incentive to initiate divorce. Get rid of child support and alimony and make 50-50 shared custody the default and you will see a different picture.

ardit33 9y ago

You can have different interpretation of the data. COST of a normal break up vs cost of a divorce. There is a huge difference of financial outcomes of a break up between a 7 month relationship and a 7 year marriage. For the 7 months relationship the couple moves on, and no financial re-arrangements happens. For the marriage, there is a much higher chance that the woman: 1) takes custody of the children (if the couple has them) 2) is recipient of child support 3) is recipient of alimony payments You can say that a "divorce" is much more costly to men and hence they are more likeley to stick it out a relationship or try to make it work, but there is less cost to women (financially at least), hence they are more likely to initiate it. Given the current marriage laws are a remnant of the 50s and 60s lifestyle (of women staying home, and needing financial protection in case of divorce), you can argue that the current law framework in the US encourages the initiation of the divorce from women, and discourages that from men. Since no divorce costs are involved in a normal 7 months long relationship, you see men initiating breakups just as much as women. TLDR: Current divorce laws favors women by a long shot, hence they are more likely to initiate it.

zzalpha 9y ago
You can have different interpretation of the data. COST of a normal break up vs cost of a divorce. As I said in my other post, I could considered that. But the study diminishes the likelihood of that interpretation. Married men initiate divorce less and report higher relationship satisfaction than women, while unmarried men and women report the same levels of relationship satisfaction. If men initiated divorce less simply because of the cost of divorce, that data does not make sense. You'd expect the same or lower satisfaction than women, but that's not borne out in the data.
- sheepmullet 9y ago
  > You'd expect the same or lower satisfaction than women, but that's not borne out in the data. Why would you expect that? Having options often decreases satisfaction. If you have a good job that has a few frustrating downsides which situation would make you more satisfied? A) You know all the alternative jobs are a lot worse. Better to try and improve the few frustrating bits. B) You are constantly informed about other great job alternatives. And you know you get to keep a lot of the benefits of the first job if you do change. Most often people in situation A will be more satisfied.