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The author is recommending, in a round about way, a way of dealing with a sex-asymmetric phenomena that was perfectly expressed in this image, from another NY T

The author is recommending, in a round about way, a way of dealing with a sex-asymmetric phenomena that was perfectly expressed in this image, from another NY Times article on marriage[1]: https://static01.nyt.com/images/2016/05/29/opinion/sunday/29botton/29botton-master768.jpg https://static01.nyt.com/images/2016/05/29/opinion/sunday/29... It is amusing that, in both articles, the illustration tells more truth about the situation than all the words following it. [1] - https://www.nytimes.com/2016/05/29/opinion/sunday/why-you-will-marry-the-wrong-person.html?_r=0 https://www.nytimes.com/2016/05/29/opinion/sunday/why-you-wi...

zzalpha 9y ago
Why are we to believe this is sex-assymetric? I'd be amazed if there weren't as many married men who were resentful because their wives have changed, whether that means becoming less thin, focused on career, children, less interested in sex, etc.
- carsongross 9y ago
  Women file for divorce twice as often as men: http://www.asanet.org/sites/default/files/savvy/documents/press/pdfs/AM_2015_Rosenfeld_News_Release_FINAL.pdf http://www.asanet.org/sites/default/files/savvy/documents/pr... It is not popular to discuss sex differences in marriage behaviors (as my burnt karma indicates) but they exist.
  - zzalpha 9y ago
    Literally right from the paper: Women are more likely than men to initiate divorces, but women and men are just as likely to end non-marital relationships, according to a new study that will be presented at the 110th Annual Meeting of the American Sociological Association (ASA). And later: Social scientists have previously argued that women initiate most divorces because they are more sensitive to relationship difficulties. Rosenfeld argues that were this true, women would initiate the breakup of both marriages and non-marital relationships at equal rate The paper goes on to theorize that the assymetry may be because the institution of marriage (and the social expectations surrounding it) has not caught up with expectations of gender equality, leading women to feel oppressed. And that has absolutely nothing to do with what this article is about, and certainly does not support the claimed sex-assymetry of marital dissatisfaction due to spousal changes that you claim (without evidence) exists.
    - carsongross 9y ago
      Yes, there are many interpretations of the data, as with any social science data. None the less, women end marriage (we are discussing preserving marriage) vastly more frequently than men, and I stand by my interpretation. I doubt very much we will convince one another of much, so I hope only that exposure to an alternative view point helps us both better understand our own thinking.
      - deleted 9y ago
        [deleted]
      - ktRolster 9y ago
        and I stand by my interpretation I can't figure out what your interpretation is. The picture you linked to in the NYTimes shows a woman who is unhappy her husband didn't live up to her illusions she had during the honeymoon stage. That is something that can happen to men or women. In fact, it used to be a stock joke: the woman who scares her husband without makeup once he finally sees her.
        carsongross 9y ago
        My interpretation of the data is that women tend to tire more quickly of their husbands and are more likely to end a marriage over it. We have the stock story of the man "trading in" his wife, but as we can see from the statistics, women are much more likely to divorce husbands than vice-versa. (A shocking statistic: 90% of divorces amongst college educated people, presumably the target demographic of the original article, are initiated by the woman.) I think this behavior has its roots in evolution: women have far fewer fertility cycles (which are correspondingly more valuable) and are much less able to remain in a marriage while pursuing other mates. It is not a popular interpretation here, at least not one that is spoken out loud, but I believe it to be reasonable and I think it is worth burning some karma to say so.
        zzalpha 9y ago
        It is not a popular interpretation here Or supported by the very study you cited. In fact, that study takes a very different tack (again, their study suggests the issue is with power imbalances that form within marriage due to institutionalized gender biases), and the fact you don't seem to realize that supports my theory that you're allowing yourself to fall victim to confirmation bias. For someone who espouses keeping an open mind, you're doing a remarkable job of demonstrating the danger of choosing facts that fit your preconceived notions.
  - rosser 9y ago
    I wouldn't, myself, characterize your original comment in this thread as "discuss[ing]" sex differences, but rather as asserting them. That's not to say they don't exist — they most certainly do, though perhaps not necessarily in the forms so many like to think. But your comment reads to me as, "See! There it is again!" which smells like nothing so much as confirmation bias.
    - carsongross 9y ago
      I will grant you that my original comment was too snarky. I am trying to be less so.
  - tjalfi 9y ago
    The cited paper is available at [0]. The discussions of reasons for divorce begins on page 4. Edited for formatting. [0] https://web.stanford.edu/~mrosenfe/Rosenfeld_gender_of_breakup.pdf https://web.stanford.edu/~mrosenfe/Rosenfeld_gender_of_break...
- mamon 9y ago
  As the old saying goes: a woman marries a man hoping that he'll change. A man marries a women hoping that she won't ever change. Usually, both are disappointed :)

zzalpha 9y ago

Why are we to believe this is sex-assymetric? I'd be amazed if there weren't as many married men who were resentful because their wives have changed, whether that means becoming less thin, focused on career, children, less interested in sex, etc.

carsongross 9y ago
Women file for divorce twice as often as men: http://www.asanet.org/sites/default/files/savvy/documents/press/pdfs/AM_2015_Rosenfeld_News_Release_FINAL.pdf http://www.asanet.org/sites/default/files/savvy/documents/pr... It is not popular to discuss sex differences in marriage behaviors (as my burnt karma indicates) but they exist.
- zzalpha 9y ago
  Literally right from the paper: Women are more likely than men to initiate divorces, but women and men are just as likely to end non-marital relationships, according to a new study that will be presented at the 110th Annual Meeting of the American Sociological Association (ASA). And later: Social scientists have previously argued that women initiate most divorces because they are more sensitive to relationship difficulties. Rosenfeld argues that were this true, women would initiate the breakup of both marriages and non-marital relationships at equal rate The paper goes on to theorize that the assymetry may be because the institution of marriage (and the social expectations surrounding it) has not caught up with expectations of gender equality, leading women to feel oppressed. And that has absolutely nothing to do with what this article is about, and certainly does not support the claimed sex-assymetry of marital dissatisfaction due to spousal changes that you claim (without evidence) exists.
  - carsongross 9y ago
    Yes, there are many interpretations of the data, as with any social science data. None the less, women end marriage (we are discussing preserving marriage) vastly more frequently than men, and I stand by my interpretation. I doubt very much we will convince one another of much, so I hope only that exposure to an alternative view point helps us both better understand our own thinking.
    - deleted 9y ago
      [deleted]
    - ktRolster 9y ago
      and I stand by my interpretation I can't figure out what your interpretation is. The picture you linked to in the NYTimes shows a woman who is unhappy her husband didn't live up to her illusions she had during the honeymoon stage. That is something that can happen to men or women. In fact, it used to be a stock joke: the woman who scares her husband without makeup once he finally sees her.
      - carsongross 9y ago
        My interpretation of the data is that women tend to tire more quickly of their husbands and are more likely to end a marriage over it. We have the stock story of the man "trading in" his wife, but as we can see from the statistics, women are much more likely to divorce husbands than vice-versa. (A shocking statistic: 90% of divorces amongst college educated people, presumably the target demographic of the original article, are initiated by the woman.) I think this behavior has its roots in evolution: women have far fewer fertility cycles (which are correspondingly more valuable) and are much less able to remain in a marriage while pursuing other mates. It is not a popular interpretation here, at least not one that is spoken out loud, but I believe it to be reasonable and I think it is worth burning some karma to say so.
        zzalpha 9y ago
        It is not a popular interpretation here Or supported by the very study you cited. In fact, that study takes a very different tack (again, their study suggests the issue is with power imbalances that form within marriage due to institutionalized gender biases), and the fact you don't seem to realize that supports my theory that you're allowing yourself to fall victim to confirmation bias. For someone who espouses keeping an open mind, you're doing a remarkable job of demonstrating the danger of choosing facts that fit your preconceived notions.
- rosser 9y ago
  I wouldn't, myself, characterize your original comment in this thread as "discuss[ing]" sex differences, but rather as asserting them. That's not to say they don't exist — they most certainly do, though perhaps not necessarily in the forms so many like to think. But your comment reads to me as, "See! There it is again!" which smells like nothing so much as confirmation bias.
  - carsongross 9y ago
    I will grant you that my original comment was too snarky. I am trying to be less so.
- tjalfi 9y ago
  The cited paper is available at [0]. The discussions of reasons for divorce begins on page 4. Edited for formatting. [0] https://web.stanford.edu/~mrosenfe/Rosenfeld_gender_of_breakup.pdf https://web.stanford.edu/~mrosenfe/Rosenfeld_gender_of_break...
mamon 9y ago
As the old saying goes: a woman marries a man hoping that he'll change. A man marries a women hoping that she won't ever change. Usually, both are disappointed :)