7 ms·

Apple relaxes 3.2.2 rule, allowing Lisp and other languages in apps

28 points by maxharris 16y ago

moron4hire 16y ago
So basically proving this was always about killing Flash.
mkramlich 16y ago
So now there might be hope again for Python as well.
- cstross 16y ago
  I think it'd be interesting to see someone write a letter to Apple to see how far they'll bend. For example: "An educational app to teach programming in python. The app consists of a code editor and source-level debugger, an online tutorial book, and example code for the user to edit and modify. Source code is stored in a read-only sandbox; any user-edited material must be saved to DropBox or an iDisk. Some built-in language functionality is disabled, to comply with App store policy (notably fork()/exec(), filesystem access outside the sandbox, most POSIX IPC, etc). Interpreter will only execute while app is open (no backgrounding)." In other words, something like "Learning Python" as an ebook, with http://www.skulpt.org/ http://www.skulpt.org/ (Skulpt) wired up to it, possibly with some IDE-style bells and whistles.
  - PieSquared 16y ago
    Well, I just sent almost exactly that email (reworded, of course, not actually copied-pasted). We'll see what they say.
    - cstross 16y ago
      If they say "yes", and you go and write the app, I'll buy it. (I'm not any kind of developer, this decade, but I'd like to keep my hand in by learning something new.)
jrockway 16y ago
You still aren't permitted to write your whole app in a real language, though, of course.
- ptomato 16y ago
  I'm not sure from what standpoint, exactly, Objective C isn't a "real" language.
  - jrockway 16y ago
    Manual memory management, no MOP, etc.
    - ptomato 16y ago
      Boy, game developers hate real languages.
      - jrockway 16y ago
        Especially the ones with 30 years of accumulated C libraries.
        pygy_ 16y ago
        Objective C is a strict superset of C, and garbage collection is optional (I'm not even sure that GC is enabled on iOS).
        deleted 16y ago
        [deleted]
        cpr 16y ago
        It's not enabled. It'll take another 1-2 generations of ARM CPUs and another 1-2 generations of RAM cramming to get to the point where GC is feasible.
        16y ago
pierrefar 16y ago
What kind of reassurance do developers get that this policy will not change yet again in the future?
- JulianMorrison 16y ago
  You want predictability and a company that won't react to destroy your business model because it's a little inconvenient? Develop for Android. Other than that, the only thing you can do is make yourself so very useful to Apple that they'll grant you an exemption if they decide to turn on a dime again.
- cheald 16y ago
  What kind of reassurance have developers ever had that Apple won't pull the rug out from underneath them? It's a dangerous market, and has been from day one, because you do business at Apple's pleasure. When you build on a platform that is wholly and completely controlled like the iPhone/iPad platform is, the danger that the gatekeeper may change the rules or kick you out is an integral part of doing business on that platform.
praptak 16y ago
"Notwithstanding the foregoing, with Apple’s prior written consent, an Application may use embedded interpreted code in a limited way if such use is solely for providing minor features or functionality that are consistent with the intended and advertised purpose of the Application." Apple's prior written consent? Limited way? Solely for providing minor features of functionality? IPhone developers, I laugh at you derisively. All of the five guys that actually made some money while sharecropping for Apple need not respond.
- PieSquared 16y ago
  Well, what's a better platform, then? I develop for the iPhone because in some ways, it's a "sure" way to make money. Not necessarily a lot of money, but still. Other than Android, which has its own problems, what other platforms exist that give as wide an audience willing to spend money on your apps? It's all cheery and nice to say "Apple sucks, hahah iPhone developers", but what's are other options for those of us who cannot work at a normal job and do not have the resources, time, or dedication to invest our lives in a startup? (Serious question, by the way, not just bashing your comment here.)
  - cheald 16y ago
    I think the subtext there is that he was saying that Android is the direction developers should lean towards. The mobile applications market is very squarely coming down to Apple versus Android. There are other big players in the mobile devices space, but not really in the mobile applications space, or at least not to the degree that Apple and Android are. Apple is where the money is today, but there are lots of folks that feel that those winds are changing - that Apple is starting to really start to make developers discontent enough to abandon their platform, while Android is finally starting to catch up to the point that it can compete as a first-class citizen.
    - hboon 16y ago
      They still have alot to catch up with. Start with allowing developers from more countries to put up paid apps on Market.
deleted 16y ago
[deleted]
mahmud 16y ago
Where does it say "Lisp" in that article?
- jm4 16y ago
  The article headline mentions Lua. The submitter could have confused it with Lisp. Or maybe the submitter changed it thinking a Lisp headline would draw more attention. In any case, the rule change could potentially include Lisp even if it wasn't specifically mentioned. Personally, I dislike it when submitters change headlines, but I don't feel like anything is misrepresented in this case.
  - Tamerlin 16y ago
    The article also describes Lua as a library, so it may just have been simple ignorance. People occasionally ask me what Lisp is when they see the book on my desk while passing by.
    - mahmud 16y ago
      Just came back from the DMV and had a man lean over to read the title of my book more carefully; it had "Adversarial Information Retrieval" on the cover, collected conference papers. You could tell from the look on his face that he understood what each individual word meant, but not their combination (I was itching to enlighten, only if he asked.) Worse than Lisp is casual mathematics. People just can't grok that mathematics can be "read" by the lay non-mathematician. They know 'mathematician' and 'physicist', and they also know that engineers use calculus, but the rest of mathematics looks exotic and hard to them. Even when the math is used for the sake of brevity, a more concise and more malleable representation of mental models (objects.) The next time someone asks me to multiply large integers in my head just because I read stuff with greek letters, I will substitute variables for their values and solve the general case, starting with a primitive ZF construction of the natural numbers ;-)
mistermann 16y ago
Can anyone comment on whether this affects MonoTouch?

28 points by maxharris 16y ago

moron4hire 16y ago

So basically proving this was always about killing Flash.

mkramlich 16y ago

So now there might be hope again for Python as well.

cstross 16y ago
I think it'd be interesting to see someone write a letter to Apple to see how far they'll bend. For example: "An educational app to teach programming in python. The app consists of a code editor and source-level debugger, an online tutorial book, and example code for the user to edit and modify. Source code is stored in a read-only sandbox; any user-edited material must be saved to DropBox or an iDisk. Some built-in language functionality is disabled, to comply with App store policy (notably fork()/exec(), filesystem access outside the sandbox, most POSIX IPC, etc). Interpreter will only execute while app is open (no backgrounding)." In other words, something like "Learning Python" as an ebook, with http://www.skulpt.org/ http://www.skulpt.org/ (Skulpt) wired up to it, possibly with some IDE-style bells and whistles.
- PieSquared 16y ago
  Well, I just sent almost exactly that email (reworded, of course, not actually copied-pasted). We'll see what they say.
  - cstross 16y ago
    If they say "yes", and you go and write the app, I'll buy it. (I'm not any kind of developer, this decade, but I'd like to keep my hand in by learning something new.)

jrockway 16y ago

You still aren't permitted to write your whole app in a real language, though, of course.

ptomato 16y ago
I'm not sure from what standpoint, exactly, Objective C isn't a "real" language.
- jrockway 16y ago
  Manual memory management, no MOP, etc.
  - ptomato 16y ago
    Boy, game developers hate real languages.
    - jrockway 16y ago
      Especially the ones with 30 years of accumulated C libraries.
      - pygy_ 16y ago
        Objective C is a strict superset of C, and garbage collection is optional (I'm not even sure that GC is enabled on iOS).
        deleted 16y ago
        [deleted]
        cpr 16y ago
        It's not enabled. It'll take another 1-2 generations of ARM CPUs and another 1-2 generations of RAM cramming to get to the point where GC is feasible.
        16y ago

pierrefar 16y ago

What kind of reassurance do developers get that this policy will not change yet again in the future?

JulianMorrison 16y ago
You want predictability and a company that won't react to destroy your business model because it's a little inconvenient? Develop for Android. Other than that, the only thing you can do is make yourself so very useful to Apple that they'll grant you an exemption if they decide to turn on a dime again.
cheald 16y ago
What kind of reassurance have developers ever had that Apple won't pull the rug out from underneath them? It's a dangerous market, and has been from day one, because you do business at Apple's pleasure. When you build on a platform that is wholly and completely controlled like the iPhone/iPad platform is, the danger that the gatekeeper may change the rules or kick you out is an integral part of doing business on that platform.

praptak 16y ago

"Notwithstanding the foregoing, with Apple’s prior written consent, an Application may use embedded interpreted code in a limited way if such use is solely for providing minor features or functionality that are consistent with the intended and advertised purpose of the Application." Apple's prior written consent? Limited way? Solely for providing minor features of functionality? IPhone developers, I laugh at you derisively. All of the five guys that actually made some money while sharecropping for Apple need not respond.

PieSquared 16y ago
Well, what's a better platform, then? I develop for the iPhone because in some ways, it's a "sure" way to make money. Not necessarily a lot of money, but still. Other than Android, which has its own problems, what other platforms exist that give as wide an audience willing to spend money on your apps? It's all cheery and nice to say "Apple sucks, hahah iPhone developers", but what's are other options for those of us who cannot work at a normal job and do not have the resources, time, or dedication to invest our lives in a startup? (Serious question, by the way, not just bashing your comment here.)
- cheald 16y ago
  I think the subtext there is that he was saying that Android is the direction developers should lean towards. The mobile applications market is very squarely coming down to Apple versus Android. There are other big players in the mobile devices space, but not really in the mobile applications space, or at least not to the degree that Apple and Android are. Apple is where the money is today, but there are lots of folks that feel that those winds are changing - that Apple is starting to really start to make developers discontent enough to abandon their platform, while Android is finally starting to catch up to the point that it can compete as a first-class citizen.
  - hboon 16y ago
    They still have alot to catch up with. Start with allowing developers from more countries to put up paid apps on Market.

deleted 16y ago

[deleted]

mahmud 16y ago

Where does it say "Lisp" in that article?

jm4 16y ago
The article headline mentions Lua. The submitter could have confused it with Lisp. Or maybe the submitter changed it thinking a Lisp headline would draw more attention. In any case, the rule change could potentially include Lisp even if it wasn't specifically mentioned. Personally, I dislike it when submitters change headlines, but I don't feel like anything is misrepresented in this case.
- Tamerlin 16y ago
  The article also describes Lua as a library, so it may just have been simple ignorance. People occasionally ask me what Lisp is when they see the book on my desk while passing by.
  - mahmud 16y ago
    Just came back from the DMV and had a man lean over to read the title of my book more carefully; it had "Adversarial Information Retrieval" on the cover, collected conference papers. You could tell from the look on his face that he understood what each individual word meant, but not their combination (I was itching to enlighten, only if he asked.) Worse than Lisp is casual mathematics. People just can't grok that mathematics can be "read" by the lay non-mathematician. They know 'mathematician' and 'physicist', and they also know that engineers use calculus, but the rest of mathematics looks exotic and hard to them. Even when the math is used for the sake of brevity, a more concise and more malleable representation of mental models (objects.) The next time someone asks me to multiply large integers in my head just because I read stuff with greek letters, I will substitute variables for their values and solve the general case, starting with a primitive ZF construction of the natural numbers ;-)

mistermann 16y ago

Can anyone comment on whether this affects MonoTouch?