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> Of course my points are based on generalizations and my value judgement is subjective. We are all ignorant regarding the vast majority of things - the best we

> Of course my points are based on generalizations and my value judgement is subjective. We are all ignorant regarding the vast majority of things - the best we can do is draw observations based on the information we have. That reasoning is just a lazy excuse for oppressing people with viscous, ignorant stereotypes. The generalizations are not only unnecessary, they are wrong and the foundation of much of the evil humanity does. People are individuals, with their own behaviors, beliefs, actions, etc. and that is what they are responsible for; there are good and bad in every house, on every block, in every town in the world. To imagine that you have any knowledge about people spread across continents is absurd, and to even claim it demonstrates an embrace of ignorance. Again, it is the parent comment's behavior that is the problem. > If enough people within my culture agree those aspects are a great danger then collectively we can outlaw them or otherwise oppose them. No, if you are in a Western country you cannot outlaw humans based on their supposed "culture". It's illegal in most countries, it is antithetical to freedom and other Western values, and we've been there before. Shall we round up the Jews next? Black-skinned people? > I am a member of a culture making a value judgement about aspects of another culture You're not a member of my culture, based on what you say, and the evidence I have is far stronger than the color of your skin or the country where you were born. Can I make value judgements about and ban you? (No.) IMHO, it is the good and peaceful against the hateful, no matter where they are born. > If Islam were to become the major culture in the West ... Is that something you'd be ok with? Absolutely. I want people to follow the religion of their choosing (or none at all, if they prefer); I'm happy for them if they can do that; I will defend their right to do so. That is a fundamental value of Western culture; the freedom of religion is one of the fundamental freedoms in all Western nations. I wish my country would open its door and encourage Muslims to come and live in freedom here, where they will be loved as neighbors, respected as full citizens, and can worship as they wish without fear.

hyperdunc 9y ago
It's far from absurd to claim I have knowledge about a group of people that adhere to a doctrine when most of their fundamental beliefs and much of their behaviors are prescribed by that doctrine. Even despite such doctrine, people are individuals and we should treat them as such as much as is practically possible. But it can't be denied that individuals tend to mirror those around them. It is not ignorant to point out trends regarding one particular culture of immigrants and it is not ignorant to note that, in aggregate, the effects of that immigration is negative. Islam is not like other religions in that it isn't just a personal matter. It is a total solution for how to live and how to organize society in a way that opposes Western secular society. Insofar as Muslims ignore these aspects of their own relgion then we can live peacefully together. Thankfully, very many do. You seem to be naively optimistic about two things: - That Middle Eastern Muslims and North Africans in particular will share enough common ground with you that they will necessarily extend your own tolerance back to you rather than seeing you as weak and exploiting you. - That enough people in your own society will put in the significant effort required to welcome lots of immigrants from these areas and integrate them in a way that overcomes their antithetical values and so avoids the kinds of problems we're now seeing. Open the doors to mass immigration from these areas and see what happens to your optimism. If you're unwilling to reduce or stop immigration rates from certain areas on principle, then at least consider that the rate needs to be reduced so that people can be assessed as individuals. That means economic migrants and refugees from the Middle East stay where they are or move to neighboring countries.

hyperdunc 9y ago

It's far from absurd to claim I have knowledge about a group of people that adhere to a doctrine when most of their fundamental beliefs and much of their behaviors are prescribed by that doctrine. Even despite such doctrine, people are individuals and we should treat them as such as much as is practically possible. But it can't be denied that individuals tend to mirror those around them. It is not ignorant to point out trends regarding one particular culture of immigrants and it is not ignorant to note that, in aggregate, the effects of that immigration is negative. Islam is not like other religions in that it isn't just a personal matter. It is a total solution for how to live and how to organize society in a way that opposes Western secular society. Insofar as Muslims ignore these aspects of their own relgion then we can live peacefully together. Thankfully, very many do. You seem to be naively optimistic about two things: - That Middle Eastern Muslims and North Africans in particular will share enough common ground with you that they will necessarily extend your own tolerance back to you rather than seeing you as weak and exploiting you. - That enough people in your own society will put in the significant effort required to welcome lots of immigrants from these areas and integrate them in a way that overcomes their antithetical values and so avoids the kinds of problems we're now seeing. Open the doors to mass immigration from these areas and see what happens to your optimism. If you're unwilling to reduce or stop immigration rates from certain areas on principle, then at least consider that the rate needs to be reduced so that people can be assessed as individuals. That means economic migrants and refugees from the Middle East stay where they are or move to neighboring countries.