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Calling this the worst thing that could have possibly happened to Afghanistan indicates both a lack of historical knowledge and imagination. Yep, now they can

Calling this the worst thing that could have possibly happened to Afghanistan indicates both a lack of historical knowledge and imagination. Yep, now they can join modern, enlightened, resource-rich nations like Saudi Arabia and the Congo.

waterlesscloud 16y ago
It's really too bad there are no counter examples. Oh, wait.
- MichaelSalib 16y ago
  What would the counterexamples be? Look, I'm sure there are countries that might be able to successfully navigate a resource find like this. They'd probably be places with few internal divisions, a relatively homogeneous population, a history of stable government and well established cultural and legal norms for dividing and sharing power. You know, the kind of place where everyone really really believes that if their candidate loses an election, they will not be dragged out into the street and shot by the other candidate's private militia. Afghanistan fails all those criteria. So, if you can find any examples of a country that fails as badly as Afghanistan does successfully avoiding the resource curse, I'd be real interested in studying it.
- blasdel 16y ago
  No realistic ones, no. Do you really expect Afghanistan to turn into Canada or Australia, much less Norway?
tptacek 16y ago
Most people in Afghanistan would be far better off as citizens of Saudi Arabia. All three of these countries are categorically worse than the US or Europe, but "worse" is not a binary condition.
- MichaelSalib 16y ago
  Given how Saudi Arabia treats non-Arabs in Saudi Arabia, I shudder to think of how horrifically they might abuse Afghanis.
Daniel_Newby 16y ago
Afghanistan has few mainstream Arabs and very few Africans. Look to the Philippines if you want an example of what good can eventually come from U.S. occupation of a fractious country. And, unlike the Philippines, Afghanistan is not an archipelago whose thousands of islands practically define the concept of obnoxious-natural-barrier. The Chinese influence bodes well too. China practices fair and even-handed oppression, rather than trying to exterminate the One True Enemy.
- deleted 16y ago
  [deleted]
- td 16y ago
  > Afghanistan has few mainstream Arabs and very few Africans. I don't understand what this has to do with it. Do you mean that absence of Africans and Arabs helps in successfully building up a democracy and mining minerals?
  - Daniel_Newby 16y ago
    It's pretty much a prerequisite.
    - Daniel_Newby 16y ago
      If you disagree, then say why, don't suppress something you simply don't like. The fact is that few Arab and African cultures have ever seen much industrial success, and then only for short times. Moreover, the best known way of turning a civilized city into a demilitarized zone is to import Arabs or Africans into it, and this has been demonstrated by numerous experiments.
      - jbooth 16y ago
        Oh great, you're one of those bold truth tellers who can proudly espouse racism while the rest of us are too PC to recognize the obvious. Right? Go read some history. Specifically, all of it regarding the middle east and africa up until the present day. Heck, you can even just look at a map for a few minutes and marvel at how straight the lines are. Maybe you'll reach some more enlightened conclusions about the way things are.
bokonist 16y ago
The Belgian Congo did very well for itself. It had a very fast growing economy, the resources really helpd. Read about it: http://www.time.com/time/printout/0,8816,866343,00.html http://www.time.com/time/printout/0,8816,866343,00.html The question is whether Afghanistan can find it's Governor Pétillon. My guess is no, because democracy does not produce men like Petlillon.
- fgf 16y ago
  It would be interesting to see an estimate of how many lives the disappearance of men like him from africa cost. And have you, by the way, been reading mencius moldbug? (http://unqualified-reservations.blogspot.com/2009/08/from-cromer-to-romer-and-back-again.html http://unqualified-reservations.blogspot.com/2009/08/from-cr...)
  - bokonist 16y ago
    Yes
- td 16y ago
  One might say, the Belgians did very well for themselves in the Congo.
  - bokonist 16y ago
    That they did - they made money by growing the pie - http://www.paulgraham.com/good.html http://www.paulgraham.com/good.html
    - td 16y ago
      Sure, growing the pie, and then eating it. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Belgian_Congo#Colonial_economic_policy http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Belgian_Congo#Colonial_economic... I don't quite understand how pg's essay applies to the Belgian Congo, is there some specific paragraph you are referring to?
      - 16y ago

waterlesscloud 16y ago

It's really too bad there are no counter examples. Oh, wait.

MichaelSalib 16y ago
What would the counterexamples be? Look, I'm sure there are countries that might be able to successfully navigate a resource find like this. They'd probably be places with few internal divisions, a relatively homogeneous population, a history of stable government and well established cultural and legal norms for dividing and sharing power. You know, the kind of place where everyone really really believes that if their candidate loses an election, they will not be dragged out into the street and shot by the other candidate's private militia. Afghanistan fails all those criteria. So, if you can find any examples of a country that fails as badly as Afghanistan does successfully avoiding the resource curse, I'd be real interested in studying it.
blasdel 16y ago
No realistic ones, no. Do you really expect Afghanistan to turn into Canada or Australia, much less Norway?

tptacek 16y ago

Most people in Afghanistan would be far better off as citizens of Saudi Arabia. All three of these countries are categorically worse than the US or Europe, but "worse" is not a binary condition.

MichaelSalib 16y ago
Given how Saudi Arabia treats non-Arabs in Saudi Arabia, I shudder to think of how horrifically they might abuse Afghanis.

Daniel_Newby 16y ago

Afghanistan has few mainstream Arabs and very few Africans. Look to the Philippines if you want an example of what good can eventually come from U.S. occupation of a fractious country. And, unlike the Philippines, Afghanistan is not an archipelago whose thousands of islands practically define the concept of obnoxious-natural-barrier. The Chinese influence bodes well too. China practices fair and even-handed oppression, rather than trying to exterminate the One True Enemy.

deleted 16y ago
[deleted]
td 16y ago
> Afghanistan has few mainstream Arabs and very few Africans. I don't understand what this has to do with it. Do you mean that absence of Africans and Arabs helps in successfully building up a democracy and mining minerals?
- Daniel_Newby 16y ago
  It's pretty much a prerequisite.
  - Daniel_Newby 16y ago
    If you disagree, then say why, don't suppress something you simply don't like. The fact is that few Arab and African cultures have ever seen much industrial success, and then only for short times. Moreover, the best known way of turning a civilized city into a demilitarized zone is to import Arabs or Africans into it, and this has been demonstrated by numerous experiments.
    - jbooth 16y ago
      Oh great, you're one of those bold truth tellers who can proudly espouse racism while the rest of us are too PC to recognize the obvious. Right? Go read some history. Specifically, all of it regarding the middle east and africa up until the present day. Heck, you can even just look at a map for a few minutes and marvel at how straight the lines are. Maybe you'll reach some more enlightened conclusions about the way things are.

bokonist 16y ago

The Belgian Congo did very well for itself. It had a very fast growing economy, the resources really helpd. Read about it: http://www.time.com/time/printout/0,8816,866343,00.html http://www.time.com/time/printout/0,8816,866343,00.html The question is whether Afghanistan can find it's Governor Pétillon. My guess is no, because democracy does not produce men like Petlillon.

fgf 16y ago
It would be interesting to see an estimate of how many lives the disappearance of men like him from africa cost. And have you, by the way, been reading mencius moldbug? (http://unqualified-reservations.blogspot.com/2009/08/from-cromer-to-romer-and-back-again.html http://unqualified-reservations.blogspot.com/2009/08/from-cr...)
- bokonist 16y ago
  Yes
td 16y ago
One might say, the Belgians did very well for themselves in the Congo.
- bokonist 16y ago
  That they did - they made money by growing the pie - http://www.paulgraham.com/good.html http://www.paulgraham.com/good.html
  - td 16y ago
    Sure, growing the pie, and then eating it. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Belgian_Congo#Colonial_economic_policy http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Belgian_Congo#Colonial_economic... I don't quite understand how pg's essay applies to the Belgian Congo, is there some specific paragraph you are referring to?
    - 16y ago