6 ms·

"Fog Cannon" fills a room to prevent burglary

45 points by staunch 16y ago

harrybr 16y ago
"I failed to steal anything, slipped over and banged my head on the way out. I don't mind though - I've sued the company for thousands of dollars... far more lucrative than a few boxes of Marlboro!"
- tomjen3 16y ago
  Only if the shop owner was in America. Pretty much anywhere else, he would have been laughed out of court.
ctingom 16y ago
That's terribly clever.
- bluemetal 16y ago
  it depends, it would certainly act as a deterrent for first time thieves/incompetent crooks or until the system become commonplace. But as soon as some guys work out how to operate despite it, it starts to work to their advantage. The cameras become useless, and the police can't enter the premises until the smoke subsides. Clever crooks might be able to use that time to sneak out uncovered exits, or to even get into ambush positions for police who may be expecting the place to be empty. (of course they shouldn't). I guess time and youtube videos will tell.
  - philwelch 16y ago
    "or to even get into ambush positions for police who may be expecting the place to be empty" At least in this case, the cops were smarter--they waited for the smokescreen to clear and entered the shop guns drawn.
  - kiba 16y ago
    Just use heat vision camera.
    - AjJi 16y ago
      I'm not sure if you can actually identify a person using that kind of cameras. Does it get better than this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Airport_Thermographic_Camera.jpg http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Airport_Thermographic_Came... ?
    - eli 16y ago
      Only if you're trying to rob a pet store
  - Encosia 16y ago
    "But as soon as some guys work out how to operate despite it" How would they do that?
    - bluemetal 16y ago
      I'm no criminal, but I'd imagine they would use similar or even homemade versions of military/fireman gear. Surplus gas masks, oxygen tanks, scuba gear, a hose running out a broken window. As for getting around, very powerful handheld lights, those proximity beepers made for the blind, compressed air to temporarily let you see/read something, getting really good at marko-polo. Maybe these ideas wouldn't work but it only took me 4 minutes to think of them, who knows what somebody else could come up with?
      - gridspy 16y ago
        The smoke is breathable. But combined with a strobe light there is no way to see. Add in typical "screamers" that you have in every alarm system and you couldn't navigate or communicate.
        bluemetal 16y ago
        there are strobe lights?? I missed that. I think you may have me beat, but I'm happy knowing that somewhere out there burglars are being terrified out of buildings by what is effectively a Disaster Area concert.
mkramlich 16y ago
great idea but also needs to deploy tentacles and scary sound effects
ricree 16y ago
An interesting idea, but in this video it just spooked the burglar enough to send them running. How much of an effect would there be if they decided to just grab some things and feel their way out. I suppose it would limit the time someone could feasibly spend stealing, and it does seem to make profitable reentry difficult. But I suspect the video overstates the benefits.
- JshWright 16y ago
  Exactly... The only reason this "worked" is because it's a pretty basic instinct that when you're somewhere you shouldn't be, and doing something you shouldn't be doing, anything unexpected is a reason to get the hell out. Loud bells and flashing lights would have been just as effective.
  - JoeAltmaier 16y ago
    The fog is completely opaque. It effectively blinds the burglar. They are not in a familiar space; their only option is to flee or be caught. The fog is very fast; they cannot steal much in 15 seconds; they certainly cannot clean the place out. So panic is only a bonus; its totally unnecessary for the fog to be an effective countermeasure.
chrischen 16y ago
The burglar probably thought it was some sleep agent, or worse, poison gas.
- Groxx 16y ago
  The burglar has seen too many movies.
  - stcredzero 16y ago
    "Terminator" is a prime example of such a movie. I was once invited by an artsy/musician friend to her new house in a very seedy part of town. Just after I parked, I heard some altercation across the street. Some big guy was yelling in a window. I saw a red light play over his chest, and then he ran. I've never seen anyone accelerate so fast outside of a broadcast of the Olympics. I seem to recall that the US military was using this trick wither in Somalia or Iraq -- just playing laser sights over marauders to scare them off -- but that stopped working and they had to actually shoot.
Groxx 16y ago
I'm thinking anyone who knows about this would interpret it as an easy way to hide what you stole for longer (cameras can't see what you're doing once it's fogged). For a store that size, it'd still be easy to nab enough stuff to make it worthwhile, but you're on camera for less time. Still, quite interesting. And that's an impressive output, I'd love to have one for halloween :D ("dissapear"? Is this an official vid? If so, that's shameful.)
- csmeder 16y ago
  Well, this would be true if the burglar wasn't worried about the police showing up. But if he thinks the police are going to be there in 5 mins, and he hasn't already cased the place real good, he is probably going to have a hard time stealing the good stuff. If the fog is thick enough he won't be able to read labels. As far as being on camera, having a HD video at the entrance of the store (that records as the thief enters) is better than a lot of low quality video of robbing. So you could make up for the fog affecting the recording of the theft. That said, if he cases the place well enough, and knows how long it takes for the police to show up, the fog may not prevent the thief from getting away with expensive items.
  - gridspy 16y ago
    Proper smoke cloak systems are combined with a strobe light that is completely disorienting. The strobe seems to come from everywhere - I've been in a room with one going, even the shop owner would have difficulty finding their way out. It really "isn't worth it"
    - csmeder 16y ago
      And Sirens that blast sounds that make the person place their hands over their ears. And then the room is filled with soap from a soap machine. Then a nets fall from the ceiling. Then there is a balloon drop. Finally, the room begins to spin at a rotational speed of 60 rpm. Sorry, I couldn't help my self
      - 16y ago
jrockway 16y ago
"Fog Cannon" fills a room to prevent rescue of collapsed heart-attack victim.
chaostheory 16y ago
Schneier has a post on the topic: http://www.schneier.com/blog/archives/2010/04/security_fog.html http://www.schneier.com/blog/archives/2010/04/security_fog.h...
sliverstorm 16y ago
Does anybody know what the sound track is from? They picked some pretty cool background.
- jarek 16y ago
  I was half-trying to recognize the music myself (almost second nature by now), but it really sounds like Generic Presentation Background Music. Not quite elevator-territory, but nevertheless, musical equivalent of a stock photo of <insert presentation cliché here>.
Murkin 16y ago
Nothing like trapping a desperate and potentiality armed criminal inside a shop, scared and confused. Those two policemen had some balls to go in there, even with guns out. (Extra points if the crook chokes a bit and then sues the shop owner)
- gridspy 16y ago
  It is corn oil, like a nightclub. The trick is a large 300 deg heated plate in the emitter.
  - Murkin 16y ago
    Apparently these things are getting standardized: "BS EN 50131-8:2009" Alarm systems. Intrusion and hold-up systems. Security fog device/systems And are supposed to be installed in a way that prevents "man traps".
mattmanser 16y ago
This stuff's been in England at least for at least 5 years, the actual non-trademarked name for these is a smoke cloak. The last two companies I worked for had it. Funny when it goes off accidentally.
- eru 16y ago
  An inventor's club I have known about, tried to work out a version of this against bicycle-theft. As far as I know the idea never worked out (and seems kind of silly for moving objects).
  - tomjen3 16y ago
    Yeah, besides if somebody stole my bike I would want them to get a sharp electric shock, not fill half the area with smoke.
    - eru 16y ago
      Get a sharp electric shock, fall over and insure themselves? Might be grounds to sue you, unfortunately.
T_S_ 16y ago
Clever but I don't see it catching on in the U.S. Looks like a potential lawsuit coming from burglars injured on the job. And if he can't get out, it's a mantrap, which I believe is illegal.
- jessriedel 16y ago
  From what I can tell, man-traps are only illegal in the US if they use deadly force.
  - stcredzero 16y ago
    I work in the US. At my last workplace, the datacenter levels had booths called "man-traps" as their entryway. You enter the booth on one side, then swipe your card to authenticate. Then the door opens on the other side. If you can't authenticate, you stay inside.
uptown 16y ago
Here's another fog cannon security video that proved effective. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vK083niNAmY http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vK083niNAmY
adriand 16y ago
"Later, the police arrived to secure the area, inadvertently setting off the Spike Trap (TM)."
olegk 16y ago
Once burglars figure out what it is, they will use it to their advantage.
acct100 16y ago
the company that is the strongest in the US flashfog. they were the ones who made standard the whole strobe light thing. watch the NBC video feature; http://www.nbcdfw.com/news/local-beat/Smothering-Crime-With-Security-Fog-89302787.html http://www.nbcdfw.com/news/local-beat/Smothering-Crime-With-...
deleted 16y ago
[deleted]
deleted 16y ago
[deleted]
acct100 16y ago
their web http://www.flashfogsecurity.com http://www.flashfogsecurity.com
- GartJ 16y ago
  The procedure for police responding to one of these is to just secure the perimeter and wait for the stuff to clear before going in. I've heard they can also send in a K-9 unit and the dogs will find anyone in the building. As well, PIR sensors should be able to detect movement inside the building as most of them are thermal. As for the security cameras, great idea for having the HD one at the outside or on the entrance. I for one am not a big believer in cameras as i know a couple of police officers and they say if the crook is half minded, and covers their face and wears baggy clothes, its almost impossible to get a description from a camera. Besides how many stories on the news do you hear of these idiots getting caught from an identification off a security camera? It would be interesting to see stats on that...

45 points by staunch 16y ago

"I failed to steal anything, slipped over and banged my head on the way out. I don't mind though - I've sued the company for thousands of dollars... far more lucrative than a few boxes of Marlboro!"

tomjen3 16y ago
Only if the shop owner was in America. Pretty much anywhere else, he would have been laughed out of court.

ctingom 16y ago

That's terribly clever.

bluemetal 16y ago
it depends, it would certainly act as a deterrent for first time thieves/incompetent crooks or until the system become commonplace. But as soon as some guys work out how to operate despite it, it starts to work to their advantage. The cameras become useless, and the police can't enter the premises until the smoke subsides. Clever crooks might be able to use that time to sneak out uncovered exits, or to even get into ambush positions for police who may be expecting the place to be empty. (of course they shouldn't). I guess time and youtube videos will tell.
- philwelch 16y ago
  "or to even get into ambush positions for police who may be expecting the place to be empty" At least in this case, the cops were smarter--they waited for the smokescreen to clear and entered the shop guns drawn.
- kiba 16y ago
  Just use heat vision camera.
  - AjJi 16y ago
    I'm not sure if you can actually identify a person using that kind of cameras. Does it get better than this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Airport_Thermographic_Camera.jpg http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Airport_Thermographic_Came... ?
  - eli 16y ago
    Only if you're trying to rob a pet store
- Encosia 16y ago
  "But as soon as some guys work out how to operate despite it" How would they do that?
  - bluemetal 16y ago
    I'm no criminal, but I'd imagine they would use similar or even homemade versions of military/fireman gear. Surplus gas masks, oxygen tanks, scuba gear, a hose running out a broken window. As for getting around, very powerful handheld lights, those proximity beepers made for the blind, compressed air to temporarily let you see/read something, getting really good at marko-polo. Maybe these ideas wouldn't work but it only took me 4 minutes to think of them, who knows what somebody else could come up with?
    - gridspy 16y ago
      The smoke is breathable. But combined with a strobe light there is no way to see. Add in typical "screamers" that you have in every alarm system and you couldn't navigate or communicate.
      - bluemetal 16y ago
        there are strobe lights?? I missed that. I think you may have me beat, but I'm happy knowing that somewhere out there burglars are being terrified out of buildings by what is effectively a Disaster Area concert.

mkramlich 16y ago

great idea but also needs to deploy tentacles and scary sound effects

ricree 16y ago

An interesting idea, but in this video it just spooked the burglar enough to send them running. How much of an effect would there be if they decided to just grab some things and feel their way out. I suppose it would limit the time someone could feasibly spend stealing, and it does seem to make profitable reentry difficult. But I suspect the video overstates the benefits.

JshWright 16y ago
Exactly... The only reason this "worked" is because it's a pretty basic instinct that when you're somewhere you shouldn't be, and doing something you shouldn't be doing, anything unexpected is a reason to get the hell out. Loud bells and flashing lights would have been just as effective.
- JoeAltmaier 16y ago
  The fog is completely opaque. It effectively blinds the burglar. They are not in a familiar space; their only option is to flee or be caught. The fog is very fast; they cannot steal much in 15 seconds; they certainly cannot clean the place out. So panic is only a bonus; its totally unnecessary for the fog to be an effective countermeasure.

chrischen 16y ago

The burglar probably thought it was some sleep agent, or worse, poison gas.

Groxx 16y ago
The burglar has seen too many movies.
- stcredzero 16y ago
  "Terminator" is a prime example of such a movie. I was once invited by an artsy/musician friend to her new house in a very seedy part of town. Just after I parked, I heard some altercation across the street. Some big guy was yelling in a window. I saw a red light play over his chest, and then he ran. I've never seen anyone accelerate so fast outside of a broadcast of the Olympics. I seem to recall that the US military was using this trick wither in Somalia or Iraq -- just playing laser sights over marauders to scare them off -- but that stopped working and they had to actually shoot.

Groxx 16y ago

I'm thinking anyone who knows about this would interpret it as an easy way to hide what you stole for longer (cameras can't see what you're doing once it's fogged). For a store that size, it'd still be easy to nab enough stuff to make it worthwhile, but you're on camera for less time. Still, quite interesting. And that's an impressive output, I'd love to have one for halloween :D ("dissapear"? Is this an official vid? If so, that's shameful.)

csmeder 16y ago
Well, this would be true if the burglar wasn't worried about the police showing up. But if he thinks the police are going to be there in 5 mins, and he hasn't already cased the place real good, he is probably going to have a hard time stealing the good stuff. If the fog is thick enough he won't be able to read labels. As far as being on camera, having a HD video at the entrance of the store (that records as the thief enters) is better than a lot of low quality video of robbing. So you could make up for the fog affecting the recording of the theft. That said, if he cases the place well enough, and knows how long it takes for the police to show up, the fog may not prevent the thief from getting away with expensive items.
- gridspy 16y ago
  Proper smoke cloak systems are combined with a strobe light that is completely disorienting. The strobe seems to come from everywhere - I've been in a room with one going, even the shop owner would have difficulty finding their way out. It really "isn't worth it"
  - csmeder 16y ago
    And Sirens that blast sounds that make the person place their hands over their ears. And then the room is filled with soap from a soap machine. Then a nets fall from the ceiling. Then there is a balloon drop. Finally, the room begins to spin at a rotational speed of 60 rpm. Sorry, I couldn't help my self
    - 16y ago

jrockway 16y ago

"Fog Cannon" fills a room to prevent rescue of collapsed heart-attack victim.

chaostheory 16y ago

Schneier has a post on the topic: http://www.schneier.com/blog/archives/2010/04/security_fog.html http://www.schneier.com/blog/archives/2010/04/security_fog.h...

sliverstorm 16y ago

Does anybody know what the sound track is from? They picked some pretty cool background.

jarek 16y ago
I was half-trying to recognize the music myself (almost second nature by now), but it really sounds like Generic Presentation Background Music. Not quite elevator-territory, but nevertheless, musical equivalent of a stock photo of <insert presentation cliché here>.

Murkin 16y ago

Nothing like trapping a desperate and potentiality armed criminal inside a shop, scared and confused. Those two policemen had some balls to go in there, even with guns out. (Extra points if the crook chokes a bit and then sues the shop owner)

gridspy 16y ago
It is corn oil, like a nightclub. The trick is a large 300 deg heated plate in the emitter.
- Murkin 16y ago
  Apparently these things are getting standardized: "BS EN 50131-8:2009" Alarm systems. Intrusion and hold-up systems. Security fog device/systems And are supposed to be installed in a way that prevents "man traps".

mattmanser 16y ago

This stuff's been in England at least for at least 5 years, the actual non-trademarked name for these is a smoke cloak. The last two companies I worked for had it. Funny when it goes off accidentally.

eru 16y ago
An inventor's club I have known about, tried to work out a version of this against bicycle-theft. As far as I know the idea never worked out (and seems kind of silly for moving objects).
- tomjen3 16y ago
  Yeah, besides if somebody stole my bike I would want them to get a sharp electric shock, not fill half the area with smoke.
  - eru 16y ago
    Get a sharp electric shock, fall over and insure themselves? Might be grounds to sue you, unfortunately.

T_S_ 16y ago

Clever but I don't see it catching on in the U.S. Looks like a potential lawsuit coming from burglars injured on the job. And if he can't get out, it's a mantrap, which I believe is illegal.

jessriedel 16y ago
From what I can tell, man-traps are only illegal in the US if they use deadly force.
- stcredzero 16y ago
  I work in the US. At my last workplace, the datacenter levels had booths called "man-traps" as their entryway. You enter the booth on one side, then swipe your card to authenticate. Then the door opens on the other side. If you can't authenticate, you stay inside.

uptown 16y ago

Here's another fog cannon security video that proved effective. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vK083niNAmY http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vK083niNAmY

adriand 16y ago

"Later, the police arrived to secure the area, inadvertently setting off the Spike Trap (TM)."

olegk 16y ago

Once burglars figure out what it is, they will use it to their advantage.

acct100 16y ago

the company that is the strongest in the US flashfog. they were the ones who made standard the whole strobe light thing. watch the NBC video feature; http://www.nbcdfw.com/news/local-beat/Smothering-Crime-With-Security-Fog-89302787.html http://www.nbcdfw.com/news/local-beat/Smothering-Crime-With-...

deleted 16y ago

[deleted]

deleted 16y ago

[deleted]

acct100 16y ago

their web http://www.flashfogsecurity.com http://www.flashfogsecurity.com

GartJ 16y ago
The procedure for police responding to one of these is to just secure the perimeter and wait for the stuff to clear before going in. I've heard they can also send in a K-9 unit and the dogs will find anyone in the building. As well, PIR sensors should be able to detect movement inside the building as most of them are thermal. As for the security cameras, great idea for having the HD one at the outside or on the entrance. I for one am not a big believer in cameras as i know a couple of police officers and they say if the crook is half minded, and covers their face and wears baggy clothes, its almost impossible to get a description from a camera. Besides how many stories on the news do you hear of these idiots getting caught from an identification off a security camera? It would be interesting to see stats on that...