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> They've also pointed out that they can't give the UK a soft landing, as they need to show that leaving the EU is not without consequences; there's a few state

> They've also pointed out that they can't give the UK a soft landing, as they need to show that leaving the EU is not without consequences; there's a few states thinking of departing, and if departing is painless, why wouldn't they? You've just described an abusive relationship. The EU should make people want to be in it, not afraid of leaving it. Are other EU member states OK with being bullied and threatened in this manner? "Remember that the EU isn't just about the fat cats in Brussels. It's also about bringing the people together. Europe has historically been the most divisive and warlike continent, with neighbours at each others' throats since records began..." The creation of the EU may or may not have helped to bring peace in the beginning, but there's no reason to think it has anything to do with maintaining peace today. We have the UN, NATO, and the unimaginable destructive power of modern weaponary keeping the peace between nations in Europe today. Heck, even the "World shrinking" power of the Internet probably plays a bigger part these days.

sorokod 9y ago
"The creation of the EU may or may not have helped to bring peace in the beginning" May or may not? Care to point out the last war between EU members?
- mike-cardwell 9y ago
  Did you not get as far as the sentence immediately following the one you quoted? I listed a bunch of likely reasons for there being no War between EU countries. Just because the EU happened to exist during a period of peace, does not mean it is the reason for it. There was a little thing called World War 2 that may also have played a part.
- presidente20 9y ago
  Care to point out the last war between two first world democratic countries?
  - vacri 9y ago
    Given that 'first world' means 'US and its allies', that's clearly a loaded question. There was no war between second-world communist countries either. If you take out the 'first world' bit, then yes, there's been plenty of war between democracies, including World War I: http://users.erols.com/mwhite28/demowar.htm http://users.erols.com/mwhite28/demowar.htm
    - presidente20 9y ago
      How many of those communist countries were democracies though? I think my point stands, it's pretty rare for democracies to go to war. If you take the example of WW1, I doubt many people would consider Germany to have been a democracy in our modern understanding of the word. Anyway where's your evidence that the EU somehow prevents war? There's nothing to stop the EU going to war with someone else (when they get a military) for starters.
    - ptaipale 9y ago
      "First world" nowadays effectively includes much of the original "Third world" (such as Sweden, Finland, Austria, Switzerland, France, Yugoslavia or Mexico ).
anthuswilliams 9y ago
As I understand it (American here), it's not only about preventing member countries from leaving the EU. It's also about stifling separatism within those countries. If Britain can leave the EU without painful trade restrictions, then regions like Catalonia may find less convincing the argument that they must remain part of Spain in order to enjoy the benefits of the EU.
- petre 9y ago
  What about stifling separatism as an effect if the refugee crisis that Bruxelles was unable to manage, which prompted leaders like Orban to take matters into their own hands?
gambiting 9y ago
The same argument could be used for keeping Silesia inside Poland or Catalonia inside Spain - surely you want them to want to stay,not keep them by force, right? But both of those regions(and I am sure there are others like it around the globe) have their own groups of people who are unhappy to be part of a larger country and have aggressive campaigns to leave. In an ideal world, I would like all EU countries to merge into one Federal Republic, like US, where UK trying to leave would be no less ridiculous than Silesia trying to leave Poland or Oregon trying to leave US. Yes, they all can - but it doesn't make the idea any less stupid.
- mamon 9y ago
  ..Silesia inside Poland [..]But both of those regions(and I am sure there are others like it around the globe) have their own groups of people who are unhappy to be part of a larger country and have aggressive campaigns to leave. You are imagining things - there's no real separatist movement in Silesia, those who campaign for "independence", are just doing it as a practical joke, the same way some people in US declare their religion as "Jedi" and have some meet-ups, local fan groups, etc. Plus, there's only few hundred, maybe a thousand of them. Please, do not give HN community the wrong impression that they are a real thing.
  - gambiting 9y ago
    I'm really confused here. Maybe the community that would like Silesia to be independent is small, but it's real. The one that wants independence of Catalonia certainly is very real. I mean, what's your main argument here, I feel like you haven't even addressed my main point?
    - mamon 9y ago
      My main point was that I'm sick and tired with the amount of FUD about Poland in the West, so I wanted to point out the false analogies. Silesia is nothing like Catalonia - I know that because I live there (Silesia, I mean). There's no real support for the separatists ideas, because at the end of the day Silesians are not really that different from Poles - except maybe that they talk with slight accent and have a dozen or two of words borrowed from German. The concept of them demanding autonomy is as alien to me as the Switzerland demanding access to the Atlantic Ocean coast :) EDIT: to be clear, I have nothing against granting them autonomy. In fact I think that getting rid of Silesia would solve most of Poland's economic problems :)

sorokod 9y ago

"The creation of the EU may or may not have helped to bring peace in the beginning" May or may not? Care to point out the last war between EU members?

mike-cardwell 9y ago
Did you not get as far as the sentence immediately following the one you quoted? I listed a bunch of likely reasons for there being no War between EU countries. Just because the EU happened to exist during a period of peace, does not mean it is the reason for it. There was a little thing called World War 2 that may also have played a part.
presidente20 9y ago
Care to point out the last war between two first world democratic countries?
- vacri 9y ago
  Given that 'first world' means 'US and its allies', that's clearly a loaded question. There was no war between second-world communist countries either. If you take out the 'first world' bit, then yes, there's been plenty of war between democracies, including World War I: http://users.erols.com/mwhite28/demowar.htm http://users.erols.com/mwhite28/demowar.htm
  - presidente20 9y ago
    How many of those communist countries were democracies though? I think my point stands, it's pretty rare for democracies to go to war. If you take the example of WW1, I doubt many people would consider Germany to have been a democracy in our modern understanding of the word. Anyway where's your evidence that the EU somehow prevents war? There's nothing to stop the EU going to war with someone else (when they get a military) for starters.
  - ptaipale 9y ago
    "First world" nowadays effectively includes much of the original "Third world" (such as Sweden, Finland, Austria, Switzerland, France, Yugoslavia or Mexico ).

anthuswilliams 9y ago

As I understand it (American here), it's not only about preventing member countries from leaving the EU. It's also about stifling separatism within those countries. If Britain can leave the EU without painful trade restrictions, then regions like Catalonia may find less convincing the argument that they must remain part of Spain in order to enjoy the benefits of the EU.

petre 9y ago
What about stifling separatism as an effect if the refugee crisis that Bruxelles was unable to manage, which prompted leaders like Orban to take matters into their own hands?

gambiting 9y ago

The same argument could be used for keeping Silesia inside Poland or Catalonia inside Spain - surely you want them to want to stay,not keep them by force, right? But both of those regions(and I am sure there are others like it around the globe) have their own groups of people who are unhappy to be part of a larger country and have aggressive campaigns to leave. In an ideal world, I would like all EU countries to merge into one Federal Republic, like US, where UK trying to leave would be no less ridiculous than Silesia trying to leave Poland or Oregon trying to leave US. Yes, they all can - but it doesn't make the idea any less stupid.

mamon 9y ago
..Silesia inside Poland [..]But both of those regions(and I am sure there are others like it around the globe) have their own groups of people who are unhappy to be part of a larger country and have aggressive campaigns to leave. You are imagining things - there's no real separatist movement in Silesia, those who campaign for "independence", are just doing it as a practical joke, the same way some people in US declare their religion as "Jedi" and have some meet-ups, local fan groups, etc. Plus, there's only few hundred, maybe a thousand of them. Please, do not give HN community the wrong impression that they are a real thing.
- gambiting 9y ago
  I'm really confused here. Maybe the community that would like Silesia to be independent is small, but it's real. The one that wants independence of Catalonia certainly is very real. I mean, what's your main argument here, I feel like you haven't even addressed my main point?
  - mamon 9y ago
    My main point was that I'm sick and tired with the amount of FUD about Poland in the West, so I wanted to point out the false analogies. Silesia is nothing like Catalonia - I know that because I live there (Silesia, I mean). There's no real support for the separatists ideas, because at the end of the day Silesians are not really that different from Poles - except maybe that they talk with slight accent and have a dozen or two of words borrowed from German. The concept of them demanding autonomy is as alien to me as the Switzerland demanding access to the Atlantic Ocean coast :) EDIT: to be clear, I have nothing against granting them autonomy. In fact I think that getting rid of Silesia would solve most of Poland's economic problems :)